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Sunchet Since: Oct, 2010
#2601: Mar 13th 2021 at 2:20:31 AM

Fugitoid isn't surprising at all, he's a very prevalent character in TMNT media. If anything it's surprising that the first cartoon didn't adapt him.

Wyrm has some recognition, he was in Archie and IDW comics.

But Pizza Face is bona fide Unexpected Character. It probably helps that he has a more interesting concept than most obscure toys.

For the record TMNT 2012 also had Ace Duck (but only as a cameo on one photo as mutant created by Baxter, similarly how he showed briefly on tv in Fred Wolf show) and Hotshot (as demon Kavaxas, a very different take), and I can't help but think that Karai's mutation was based on Scale Tail.

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#2602: Mar 13th 2021 at 6:19:09 PM

My favourite part of the 1987 series isn't the turtles, it's the bad guys. Shredder and Kraang have this great chemistry. They're such an odd couple. Often times they can't stand each other, and they constantly bicker like an old married couple, but they're stuck with each other. Then there's Shredder's relationship with Rocksteady and Bebop. They keep screwing up, and Shredder keeps berating them. The whole bad guy side acts like this super dysfunctional family, and that's way more interesting than the turtles.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#2603: Mar 14th 2021 at 5:46:06 PM

Can't say I have much nostalgia for the 87' Turtles myself.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#2604: Mar 14th 2021 at 7:48:00 PM

[up] Me neither. My first Turtles were the ones from the 2003 series.

RE: Did anyone know Fugitoid's design predates the Turtles themselves?

Etheru Since: Jul, 2009
#2605: Mar 14th 2021 at 10:01:21 PM

I think a lot of my preference for Rise came from how it had more elements in common with the 2003 incarnation (which I did grow up on).

Generally very heavily altered elements, but I felt the way it altered the elements was done more respectfully than the 2012 incarnation.

Not to mention I felt its take on the Demon Shredder was arguably done a lot better, doing a great job at building up how dangerous he was (delivering on it pretty well), and heavily simplifying his convoluted, Retcon-heavy origin story.

VengefulBale Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight from Nowhere Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight
#2606: Mar 14th 2021 at 10:03:13 PM

It also managed to add in a bit of Ch'rell with the fact that an Utrom was the "Oni" that made the armor

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Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#2607: Mar 14th 2021 at 10:08:21 PM

[up][up] Out of curiosity, what exactly did you think Rise did more respectively than the 2012 series?

One similarity I've noticed with Rise and the 2003 series is that they both lean more heavily into the mystical whereas the 2012 series and 1987 series leaned more into science fiction (albeit the wacky Saturday morning cartoon variety in the latter).

Edited by Kaiseror on Mar 14th 2021 at 12:08:37 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#2608: Mar 14th 2021 at 10:24:25 PM

I said this before but I really cannot stand much the art-style of the 80's. Like the Turtles' noses, it bugs me how big they are.

Like its cartoonish but its comedy cartoonish & I know the 80's isn't comedy comedy but its still too chibi for my tastes.

By contrast Rise's art-style is just as cartoonish but the Turtles are more slick and cool looking, same with the 2003 and 2012 cartoons.

Edited by slimcoder on Mar 14th 2021 at 10:24:36 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Etheru Since: Jul, 2009
#2609: Mar 14th 2021 at 11:57:02 PM

[up][up]I think where it boils down is I felt that with Rise's reimaginings, even when the character was really heavily altered from prior incarnations (Raph's softer characterization, Leo's prankster personality, and Donnie's Insufferable Genius aspect), they felt like they tried to do more with them; Donnie's need for validation is explored throughout the series, and I kind of liked the idea of Leo being incredibly talented but otherwise preoccupied being a teen.

Even some of the strangest reimaginings, like Splinter's past as Hamato Yoshi, which he spent largely under the stage name Lou Jitsu, which I wasn't terribly big on at first, I felt was interesting for giving Hamato Yoshi a life outside of his eternal rivalry with Shredder, which has sort of always defined the character.

It basically felt like the series took more time to explore the new takes on these characters in-depth.

As far as "respect" goes, I was a bit too harsh on the 2012 series; a lot of its reimaginings are pretty good, like Karai, Slash, the Rat King, Bebop and Rocksteady, Renet, and Tatsu, but I still don't really like Hun, Bishop, or Mona Lisa's reimaginings that much due to how little they have to do with the characters they're based on.

I actually think Mona Lisa has it the worst despite not growing up on the 1987 series, since the 2012 series seemed to intend to rectify a maybe 30-something year old gripe (that Mona should have appeared again after being infamously snubbed by Executive Meddling), but undermined it by basically making a completely new character instead (an alien literally nicknamed Mona Lisa rather than a human-newt mutate).

That isn't saying that all of the complete reimaginings were bad; the Rat King basically had nothing to do with prior incarnations beyond his ability to control rats, but I thought it worked out due to the general creepiness of the character. It just kinda felt like they tried to make some of the characters "cooler" rather than interesting, or to get some brownie points from fans who loved those characters.

I will admit that I dipped out of watching the 2012 show frequently sometime before Season 4 (I did see at least one of Mona Lisa's episodes, though) and I probably just have my Nostalgia Filter on too tight. XD

Sunchet Since: Oct, 2010
#2610: Mar 15th 2021 at 2:55:17 AM

As TMNT Entity blog noted, Rat King is a different character in almost every version. It doesn't help that his very original version changed in later appearances and he didn't even really call himself Rat King.

Honestly, if you saw his first appearance in comics (or at least 2003 episode based on it) you would never guess this guy would become a popular recurring mainstream villain reappearing in many adaptations of the franchise. It's as if Cockroach Terminator became a thing.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#2611: Mar 15th 2021 at 7:54:39 AM

Oh man, its Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic all over again.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Etheru Since: Jul, 2009
#2612: Mar 15th 2021 at 7:12:49 PM

I was surprised that beyond some in-jokes, Rise didn't have a crossover with the 1987 series or even many 1987 elements.

The only one I can really name is Kraang due to his implied presence in the series through the series finale, and even then has only really been named in the synopsis for the Netflix movie so far.

On that note, I hope Kraang's personality is more in-line with his 1987 counterpart; I didn't care much for the Kraang in the 2012 series due to how boring and incompetent they generally were as villains.

VengefulBale Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight from Nowhere Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight
#2613: Mar 15th 2021 at 7:36:46 PM

The 1987 elements are more of the standard fare but heavily downplayed and reworked: One of the more notable being that Splinter is once again a mutated Hamato Yoshi (the 1987 cartoon started this tradition due to simplifying Splinter's backstory) only that he is mostly known as Lou Jitsu and has no direct non-blood relation to the Shredder, as well as being a lot more irresponsible and lazy than past incarnations in his youth and there being no Tang Shen again like in 1987

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Etheru Since: Jul, 2009
#2614: Mar 15th 2021 at 7:39:23 PM

Oh yeah, I forgot that was a 1987 element for some reason. XD

VengefulBale Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight from Nowhere Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight
#2615: Mar 15th 2021 at 7:42:30 PM

It's common to assume many 1987 additions were there from the start rather than being added to the cartoon.

Hell, you could almost call the 1987 cartoon an In Name Only adaptation because of how much things are changed that they barely resemble the Mirage comics at all (not that it's a bad thing, BTW)

Prettiest Meta Knight Gijinka, ngl
Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#2616: Mar 15th 2021 at 8:33:26 PM

I do prefer the origin of Hamato Yoshi and Splinter being the same person myself. Though I imagine that a series more loyal to the original comics never would have gotten off the ground in the 80s due to how dark and violent it could be.

Looking back at some of the stuff in the mirage comic can be pretty surreal for those more used to the modern turtles series. Casey Jones had a wife who wasn't April and eventually died giving birth to their daughter, Michelangelo was the most laidback of the turtles and even wrote a best-selling novel at one point and Shredder wasn't even the villain for most of the series due to him getting killed at the end of the first issue, I think he came back when a colony of worms feeding on his corpse were exposed to mutagen and developed a hive consciousness that believed itself to be the real Shredder.

Edited by Kaiseror on Mar 15th 2021 at 10:43:59 AM

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#2617: Mar 15th 2021 at 8:57:29 PM

Wow, that is some 2012 Rat King levels of horror right there.

The legend has returned.
VengefulBale Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight from Nowhere Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight
#2618: Mar 15th 2021 at 9:09:49 PM

2012 might've been overall sillier than 2003 TMNT (before the latter's retool) but when it went dark it went dark. And Mirage was far darker than either despite being a Daredevil parody (and I'd daresay it beats Daredevil's darkness in many areas), hell Splinter was a lot more callous and vindictive there than any other incarnation since he trained the Turtles to kill Shredder, rather than just to defend themselves.

Edited by VengefulBale on Mar 15th 2021 at 10:09:55 AM

Prettiest Meta Knight Gijinka, ngl
Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#2619: Mar 15th 2021 at 9:23:37 PM

[up] I think that was more a case of Characterisation Marches On. He was more vengeful when it was just a one-off parody comic but I think he mellowed out when it became an actual series.

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2620: Mar 15th 2021 at 11:56:40 PM

[up][up][up][up] Splinter and Hamato Yoshi being one and the same works really well when you remove the 1987 reasoning for it (namely to give a Lighter and Softer origin for Splinter's bloody past) and instead incorporate elements of comic's backstory like Tang Shen and the fact the Shredder is motivated to kill Hamato Yoshi no matter the cost. Thus far, only 2012 has fully realized what a Splinter/Hamato Yoshi means in a feud with the Shredder.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#2621: Mar 16th 2021 at 10:11:05 AM

2012!Splinter is probably the most fleshed out version of the character, by virtue of him having an ongoing feud with Sasaki. He has even more enmity with him than the Turtles do, which gives him plenty more investment in the fight.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
ChicoTheParakeet Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#2622: Mar 16th 2021 at 8:55:15 PM

As much as I like 2003 and IDW, I agree that 2012 Splinter is the best incarnation. His discipline to ensure the survival of his children really fleshed him out. It never stuck with me though, New York always felt too empty for me to care about his teachings.

As a someone interested in culture, I really like IDW's theme of reincarnation but other threats prevent Saki and Yoshi's feud to develop. It's still my favourite incarnation of the franchise: mature and respectful of its multiple source materials while creating its own entity. At times it does get too sidetracked and wordy.

Currently watching Rise and I'm finding it really funny. I get why someone would dislike it but I think it holds water. I cannot deny that ignoring previous incarnations is alienating. I also believe it was made too soon after 2012's cancelation.

I hope I didn't derail the conversation too much.

Edited by ChicoTheParakeet on Mar 16th 2021 at 5:50:11 PM

Etheru Since: Jul, 2009
#2623: Mar 16th 2021 at 10:21:57 PM

I remember my very first reaction to Rise of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in the pilot was, after how empty New York was in the 2012 series, "Oh my god, New York actually has a night life!"

I admit I do agree it was made too soon after the 2012 series, but the franchise is also one of Nickelodeon's biggest money makers.

I appreciate the 2012 series and Rise being distinct, unique continuities though. It's certainly better than the mouse corporation's Marvel cartoons after EMH, most of which were just shallow copies of the Marvel brand's biggest moneymaker (incidentally, a new Spider-Man show came out a few months right after the then-recent one ended), though the TMNT franchise overall feels a lot more malleable than Marvel and DC anyway.

VengefulBale Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight from Nowhere Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight
#2624: Mar 16th 2021 at 11:12:43 PM

I still wish this gets a full show one day. Imagine a whole Next Generation TMNT show done well.

Prettiest Meta Knight Gijinka, ngl
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#2625: Mar 17th 2021 at 12:48:02 AM

Man is the next show gonna have to live up to Rise's action scenes.

Like Rise raised the bar and it raised that bar to the fucking sky.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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