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Deadlock Clock: May 31st 2012 at 11:59:00 PM
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Spark9 Since: Nov, 2010
#52: Jun 12th 2012 at 8:04:30 AM

Let's vote on whether we should bump this tongue

ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#53: Jun 12th 2012 at 8:20:14 AM

Calling crowner: replace The Hero with The Leader in Five-Man Band.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#54: Jun 13th 2012 at 9:09:29 AM

Nice. Of course, Five-Man Band is technically a locked page, so it would take a mod to make the switch there. Other than that... Do The Hero and The Leader need any description tweaks/overhauls to reflect the change?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#55: Jun 14th 2012 at 5:55:23 AM

We'll need to change the The Hero paragraph in Five-Man Band. I've this proposal:

  • The Leader(lead singer) The leader of the group. Can be a mastermind, charismatic, levelheaded, headstrong, or some combination of the four.

The Hero will need some of the compare/contrast with other members of Five-Man Band removed, The Leader will need some of them added - but on The Leader, the first thing I notice is a really bad case of Type Labels Are Not Examples.

Opinions?

[down]Corrected.

edited 14th Jun '12 9:19:16 AM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
abk0100 Since: Aug, 2011
#56: Jun 14th 2012 at 9:17:13 AM

"some combination of the four"

but, yeah, that sounds about right. Maybe mention that he'll usually be The Hero.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#57: Jun 15th 2012 at 8:50:44 AM

Last bump before weekend.

I've edited The Leader and The Hero a bit to reflect the crowner results; if we are good with [up][up], I'll request the edits on Five-Man Band and the lock here.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#58: Jun 16th 2012 at 3:48:09 AM

Hearing nothing, I'll request the edit and lock here.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Telcontar In uffish thought from England Since: Feb, 2012
In uffish thought
#59: Jun 16th 2012 at 4:06:25 AM

When The Hero was part of the Five-Man Band, there was a point of having the subpages be Star Wars characters. Is it possible to keep that in some way? (This may be a pointless question or one for an IP thread, and I know that Luke is still on The Hero.)

That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#60: Jun 16th 2012 at 4:22:48 AM

[up]Make an Image Pickin thread for this. I've been asking this question as well.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#61: Jun 16th 2012 at 7:36:23 AM

Are we truly done here? I thought the purpose of this thread was to clarify the description of The Hero, was that done?

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#62: Jun 16th 2012 at 5:28:34 PM

Not to my knowledge. Do note that I had asked multiple times about whether or not defining The Hero as "champion of good from either a narrative or an in-universe POV, whether or not they're actually The Leader of the good faction(s)" is accurate, but having gotten back sufficient feedback from anybody.

edited 16th Jun '12 5:29:58 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#63: Jun 19th 2012 at 3:08:20 PM

Whoa, as the person who created and launched the YKKTW for The Leader, in part to help out the Five-Man Band mess I gotta say, The Hero should not have been replaced by The Leader in the Five-Man Band set up.

As I'm sure others have noted, often times The Hero is just the main protagonist, The Champion or the central character and face of a team without necessarily holding a leadership position. This sets up The Hero to be a contrast to The Lancer who is the character that opposes this character in terms of personality.

Now we have assymmetric naming going on. The Hero has a direct relationship to The Lancer being Foils. The Leader has a direct relationship to Number Two being team rankings. In most teams The Hero and The Leader are the same person, and The Lancer and Number Two are the same, but they can be mixed and matched.

The Hero and The Lancer are terms more about group dynamics and appearances which work better for archetypical tropes like Five-Man Band. The Leader and Number Two are specifically about chain of command which is more story based.

In short, either keep Five-Man Band The Hero and The Lancer and then put in the description, usually also The Leader and Number Two or make it The Leader and Number Two and then put in the description usually also The Hero and The Lancer.

acrobox Since: Nov, 2010
#64: Jun 19th 2012 at 4:34:58 PM

cut and reposted in fiveman band discussion. the main point here is that the hero and the leader often get confused. Short version I think the hero should stay in the five man band, as its more about archetypical appearance, whereas the leader is about chain of command.

edited 19th Jun '12 8:21:16 PM by acrobox

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#65: Jun 19th 2012 at 5:13:51 PM

[up] For the record, the "Mediator" role is pretty much what the relatively-recently created The Face trope is all about.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
ChaoticNovelist Since: Jun, 2010
#66: Jun 21st 2012 at 9:16:09 AM

The Lancer is not opposite of The Ideal Hero. That is just what usually happens. The Lancer is the foil. Their personality is reflective and so can shift from example to example. It just so happens that many heroes are idealistic so we have snarky antiheroish lancers.

In any case, The Hero and The Leader are not the same so the first paragraph designating the hero as the leader and the captain should be moved to the bottom or removed entirely.

ChaoticNovelist Since: Jun, 2010
#67: Jul 9th 2012 at 9:52:22 AM

Bumb. Is anyone working on the wick clean up? With over 7000 wicks we should probably have a special efforts for this.

abk0100 Since: Aug, 2011
#68: Jul 9th 2012 at 11:31:56 AM

[1] It might be better to finish cleaning up the examples, and then we can copy those changes over to the wicks.

edited 9th Jul '12 11:32:48 AM by abk0100

ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#69: Aug 23rd 2012 at 6:00:42 AM

It looks like there is still wick cleanup to do here.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#71: Aug 24th 2012 at 10:05:11 AM

Your definition sounds good. Note that it should include compare/contrast sections to Anti-Hero and The Protagonist.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#72: Aug 24th 2012 at 1:49:00 PM

Okay, any suggestions?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Werebazs Since: Sep, 2011
#73: Nov 25th 2012 at 7:56:55 AM

I think it was a big mistake to replace The Hero with The Leader on the Five-Man Band. I'll try to clean this up: The Leader is not necessarily the leader of a Five-Man Band. The Leader is the character, who takes charge of any given group. If the group is a Five-Man Band, The Leader will usually be either The Hero or The Lancer, but for examples in Black Lagoon and Fairy Tail Dutche and Erza are the respective leaders who're The Big Guys of their gangs. In case of a Five Bad Band The Leader is either the Big Bad, or The Dragon, while in a Six Student Clique The Head fulfills this role etc ect. But that's not all! The Leader doesn't even need a group of people with specified roles. He/she can be The Leader of an army of Red Shirts or Mooks as well. For example: in Star Wars The Clone Wars, Anakin is a mix of types III and IV of The Leader, as he leads his clone troops with being charismatic and headstrong, and often comes up with Indy Ploys. On the other hand Obi-Wan (in the same show) is a the incarnate of a Type II leader, who's always levelheaded and collected. They're part of the same Five-Man Band, with Obi-Wan being The Hero and Anakin is his lancer. Anakin is also The Protagonist, with Obi-Wan being the Deuteragonist. The series also had a Five Bad Band for an arc, where Cad Bane took on the role of The Leader, and he was The Dragon of Dooku. Dooku himself is a type I leader of the Separatist allience, because he gathered them with the specific purpose of erupting the Clone Wars, but he's not part of any groups beyond that.

edited 25th Nov '12 10:36:29 AM by Werebazs

Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#74: Nov 25th 2012 at 12:05:12 PM

The Leader is not necessarily the leader of a Five-Man Band
Irrelevant. None of the Five-Man Band roles are specific to that trope.

As for your examples, I'm not convinced they're actually examples of Five-Man Band. The cleanup for that trope is still just getting started. But in any case, I fail to see the relevance.

The Lancer probably needs some cleanup as well. I suspect its current definition is contributing to the misuse of Five-Man Band. But The Hero can be The Lancer, since The Lancer can be "the lieutenant for The Leader". The Hero is a self-contained trope defined by an individual's character traits. And since The Hero can be The Lancer, we can't require The Hero be a foil for The Lancer in Two Foils And A Mediator (the new supertrope for Five-Man Band currently in YKTTW).

In any case, what we need to focus on here is The Hero, not other tropes like Five-Man Band.

edited 25th Nov '12 12:06:14 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#75: Nov 25th 2012 at 12:16:04 PM

Five-Man Band's first role was always defined as 'The leader of the group. Can be a mastermind, charismatic, levelheaded, headstrong, or some combination of the four.' It used to be The Hero for years, but recently it has been conclusively proven that it's a gross mistake to do so, and thus was switched out with The Leader.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

PageAction: TheHero
29th May '12 12:19:49 PM

Crown Description:

What would be the best way to fix the page?

Total posts: 81
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