The Order of the Stick: Rules Discussion

Rich has said he doesn't actually track character levels, but we are basing Durkon's class level on his ability to cast the 7th level cleric spell regenerate. He lost two class levels due to being resurrected twice during the Dwarven Lands arc, so he would have been at least 15th level before being killed by Malack. I don't remember if we saw him casting any 8th level cleric spells, but it's the only way the mechanics work out.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 3rd 2020 at 1:56:56 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I mean, if he needs to roll a 15 or higher, he's probably fine. That's hard enough to make Redcloak reasonably think that this would kill Durkon but not so hard that Durkon's survival is implausible. Exactly the kind of odds that lead the good guys to survive an opening salvo.

Also, I believe Durkon was pegged as exactly level 15 when he fought Malack, from counting spell slots. Durkula would've found it very hard get XP for anything, so he probably remained level 15, and then two raise deads bring him down level 13.

Edited by Gilphon on Aug 3rd 2020 at 4:09:58 AM

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Dwarves have a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells, so Durkon's chances improve to 40%.

And that's assuming he has average Constitution anyway. He's a cleric who acts as a frontline melee combatant, it's quite likely he's got higher than average Constitution.

Plus any buffs to his saves he might have, either long-term ones cast at the start of the day or short-term ones cast before talking with Redcloak.

On the other hand, we're also ignoring buffs Redcloak might have to his save DC.

Suffice it to say, whether Durkon survives this is up to Rich.

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Why did Redcloak say Implosion would specifically prevent a target "collapsed in on itself" from being resurrected?

As I read it, it would leave behind some dense byproduct at least as good as the dust left behind by Disintegrate (which is explicitly said to work with Resurrection... in the absence of wind anyway).

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

Maybe he's assuming that, without their highest-level cleric, they'd only have access to Raise Dead (which requires an intact corpse) and not Resurrection (which just requires literally any of the body)?

Or maybe he plans to take the imploded matter with him like a creepy souvenir...

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I mean, for practical purposes an imploded singularity probably is unusable for resurrection, the same way ashes scattered in the wind are.

Yes, there are technically remains left over, but that doesn't mean anyone actually has a any chance getting their hands on said remains.

Or, Mr. Burlew just decided in his version the spell literally implodes the target out of existence leaving nothing behind.

Hey, aren't you supposed to need the gloves Durkon is wearing to be able to handle the hammer that Minrah is wielding?

To use it to best effect, yes, but it can be used without them. Assuming it's the 3.5e Minor Artifact Hammer of Thunderbolts, which appears to be the case.

Also need the belt, which Durkon is still wearing. Expect the hammer to be returned to Durkon soon, Minrah is just wielding it temporarily to have a really good weapon at her disposal to be of the most help to Durkon.

And so that Durkon could approach Redcloak unarmed for parley, as he points out. As Redcloak then notes, this means very little to a high level cleric on a practical level, but it's symbolically important to open negotiations with hands out and empty, as it were.

This is also a bit of "then where's the hammer?" foreshadowing, but if Durkon's belt and gloves had also disappeared, we the readers would have known something was up.

I guess I decided to do a little check on how many times Durkon has to hit Xykon with a hammer to kill him. Consider:

average HP wise, Xykon would have 26?d12 (26 is not confirmed, but his use of multiple epic spells suggest he's way higher than just a 21), so around 169 HP. However, he did survive Darth V's fight, so his average HP is around:

the Empowered Sunburst cost him around 131.25 (25d6 x 1.5), and the Crushing Hand did 19 (2d6 + 12). The backlash from Superb Dispelling is at 10d6, so around 35. Finally, he took the full force of Explosive Runes (6d6) which amounts to 21. In total, he might have around 206 HP.

Meanwhile, Durkon's hammer (assuming it's a hammer of thunderbolts) does 4d6 (I think the artifact ignores DR) plus his str modifier, which I'll peg as 18, so +4. BAB gets +9. He does around...27 dmg? If DR applies, he now does only 12 dmg.

Thus, Durkon only has to hit Xykon about 8-18 times for it to stick. Easy-peasy.

ETA: I'm dumb. I completely forgot about AC. Not sure how to calculate that.

Edited by copperglass on Sep 21st 2020 at 5:48:52 AM

Also, 18 STR is probably a bit low, unless the assumption is Durkon's base strength is only 12 (he's carrying nothing but heavy gear... then again dwarfs don't care about loads slowing them down), since the minimum strength add from the belt+gauntlets (specially stacking with the hammer) is 6 itself, and if the belt was the better version then it's a +8 to str. Plus it's a large weapon, ergo Durkon must be using it two-handed, so it's actually 1.5x strength. I'd go with 20 STR, meaning that the damage roll is 4d6+12, for an average of 26 (4*3.5+5*1.5+5). Analysis thread puts him at 16-21. I'm not sure if it includes the STR adds though.

Xykon's AC is probably low enough to be largely irrelevant. But if we want to be pedantic, minimum to-hit with an oversized +5 weapon and that STR as a 13th level cleric is +17. Unless Xykon casts Epic Mage Armor and adds +20 AC. But Durkon would get two attacks a round. Not counting using Thor's Might or something which gives full BAB IIRC, for an extra iterative and some more to-hit.

Doesn't ignore DR, but any DR Xykon has would be beaten by it anyway, since skeleton and a magic weapon.

Edited by RainehDaze on Sep 21st 2020 at 2:51:08 PM

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Question on this post:

Am I right that the focus of Light is a single point in space that may be on an object being carried? Seems more likely they'd be using the latter case rather than casting it on the high ceiling of the room they're in, but if by some chance they did cast it on the ceiling, I would imagine that post describes exactly how an antimagic cone would affect it: suppressing the light cast within its area of effect, but not dispelling the spell unless the Beholder were to look at the light source itself.

We're in houserules territory. Light has to be cast on an object and it causes that object to shed light. Once cast, the spell can't be moved from that object, though the object can be carried around like a torch or something.

Being a cantrip, the rules are pretty rigid. It does not create a glowy ball of illumination that you can just make float around as needed, as we see happening for V.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 29th 2021 at 12:52:02 PM

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I assume that the houserule is to make it more in line with the Dancing Lights spell.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

What do you mean? Serini absolutely can make that many attacks in two rounds. Assuming 20th level, she has a base of three attacks and has at least four feats. Quick Draw to draw the dart as part of the attack, then Greater Two-Weapon Fighting to have three off-hand attacks (Requires Dex 19, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, and BAB 11). That's six attacks in one round and 12 attacks in two. That's not even including epic feats like Storm Of Throws, where she just outright gets to make an attack against everyone she wants to attack.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Well, I stand corrected.