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The Order of the Stick: Rules Discussion

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This is the thread for discussing Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition rules and how they may or may not apply to The Order of the Stick.

Discuss away, and please keep it civil. Discussion of the comic itself — plot, characters, and so forth — goes here.

    Basic facts for context: 
  • OOTS is a webcomic set in an RPG Mechanics 'Verse based on Dungeons & Dragons version 3.5, with a custom setting and cosmology, using mainly Open Gaming License (OGL) and homebrew content.
  • Tropers unfamiliar with D&D 3.5 may wish to visit http://www.d20srd.org/ to learn the details of the system or look up terminology. We will assume discussion to be about the D&D 3.5 rules unless stated otherwise.
  • The author has specifically stated that, while he attempts to work within the letter of the rules as much as possible, OOTS is at heart a story and story trumps rules. This is a cautionary statement against overanalyzing.
  • Any discussion of D&D cosmology should acknowledge that OOTS is entirely homebrew in this regard and nothing about it in any of the core rulebooks or supplemental material can be assumed to be canon.

Edited by wingedcatgirl on Feb 22nd 2024 at 11:46:50 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#1976: Oct 18th 2017 at 7:38:52 AM

How is Fighter/Sorcerer as a multiclass build? Is it terrible, workable, or potentially awesome?

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#1977: Oct 18th 2017 at 7:42:21 AM

Usually worse than a Paladin with the same stats, or straight Sorcerer.

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
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#1978: Oct 18th 2017 at 7:53:24 AM

A fighter wants to be hitting things with weapons and wearing armor. A sorcerer wants to be casting spells, unencumbered. A fighter's primary stat is Strength and a sorcerer's is Charisma. Not much synergy there.

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#1979: Oct 18th 2017 at 8:31:57 AM

Splice in some Rogue and you have Nale: a fundamentally shittier Bard.

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johnnye Since: Jan, 2001
#1980: Oct 18th 2017 at 8:56:43 AM

What about a Dex fighter? Go a kind of Arcane Archer route, but with a few options for close-range spellcasting if you feel like whipping out your rapier.

Not really familiar with the Sorcerer spell list, so I don't know how workable that would be. Sounds fun though. Storm Sorcerer with Lightning Arrow seems like a pretty cool concept...


"Yeah, but think about spell capacity! A Bard 6/Sorcerer 6 with 18 CHA could cast eleven 1st level spells and nine 2nd level spells per day. That's, like, a lot!"

Recently worked out the spell slots my L7 Bard would have if he took his next 3 levels in Warlock. There wasn't a lot of difference per day (counting short-rest recharge of the Warlock slots), but my god, the CANTRIPS. I'd end up with nearly all of them from both lists tongue

Ninjaxenomorph The best and the worst. from Texas, Texas, Texas Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
The best and the worst.
#1981: Oct 18th 2017 at 9:02:14 AM

The funny thing is, in Pathfinder, Nale would have went straight Mesmerist. Hell, Paizo knows the relationship between bard and mesmerist; the iconic mesmerist is the evil twin of the iconic bard.

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johnnye Since: Jan, 2001
#1982: Oct 18th 2017 at 9:36:13 AM

It's the interesting thing about charisma, I suppose. It's more morally obvious when it's supernaturally powered, but even if it's mundane psychology, a heightened ability to make people agree do whatever you want them to is... creepy, at best, when you stop to think about it.

Think about the word "charming". It doesn't actually mean "good", or even "nice", it just means the ability to project those qualities independent of how true they are. ("Charming Is Neither Nice Nor Good"?)

Matues Impossible Gender Forge Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Impossible Gender Forge
#1983: Oct 18th 2017 at 9:54:40 AM

Edit: woops, thought we were talking 3.5 and not 5e.

A fighter/sorcerer, when properly made, can be better than a fighter but worse than a sorcerer. Melee-casters usually just focus on self-buffing and find a nice Pr C that lets them cast in armor, or just wait until they can have an all-day spell that works just as well.

Personally, if you're going to do that then you'd probably take at most two fighter levels to help you line up for a spellblade or eldritch knight or whatever prestige class, but after that you might as well just focus on casting.

edited 18th Oct '17 9:59:19 AM by Matues

shigmiya64 Somebody get this freaking duck away from me! from a settlement that needs our help, General Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Somebody get this freaking duck away from me!
#1984: Nov 1st 2017 at 9:50:57 PM

So in Origin of PCs, Belkar brings a Monk NPC to tears when he points out how even with all his Monk class features he's still better off fighting armed rather than unarmed, and his class fails to achieve its basic purpose. Is he talking about 3e Monks or 3.5e Monks? Because I've been reading about the 3.5 Monk class and it doesn't sound that bad.

edited 1st Nov '17 9:53:41 PM by shigmiya64

Matues Impossible Gender Forge Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Impossible Gender Forge
#1985: Nov 1st 2017 at 11:38:36 PM

3.5e Monks suffer from a variety of faults, namely:

They're worse at hitting things than an average fighter,

They require additional ability scores over an average fighter,

They can't wear armor and their natural bonuses to defense never really match that of magic armor,

One of their main abilities let's them make more attacks but at a penalty to offense, which often turns into just more ways to miss- and also, prohibits them from moving much-

And in general their abilities don't synergize: They get movement bonuses, but are encouraged to stay in one spot to flurry. They get bonuses to melee unarmed attacks, but are terrible at hitting people, squisher than normal fighters and have worse AC. Most of their abilities seem almost random, and don't create an especially strong end character.

johnnye Since: Jan, 2001
#1986: Nov 2nd 2017 at 11:40:28 AM

  • They get bonuses to melee unarmed attacks, but are terrible at hitting people,
    • This seems backwards — if you're trying to create a "flurry of blows" playstyle it should be a Death of a Thousand Cuts, no one blow doing tons of damage but you can't avoid 'em all.
  • squishier than normal fighters and have worse AC
    • this half-works, they should be incentivized to dodge by not being very tough, but they should also be very good at dodging. If anything, that should be the character-defining principle: unlike every other squishy class, they're able to wade into melee because they can be confident they'll avoid enemy attacks.

I wonder if that last point suggests a potential option for de-MA Dding them: make them the only class that can dump Con entirely. I know, I know, monks are tough — but just like their strength and agility, that's down to willpower, not physicality. So let them use Wis for Con, either as a direct substitution or via pseudo-magical means. Maybe give them a bunch of ways to generate temp hit points as a substitute for having crappy base ones (and maybe allow them to use this ability on others as an idiosyncratic kind of healing).

Out of curiosity, what do people think of the 5e Monk? It seems pretty playable but I still have a few queries about how well it all fits together as an intuitive class.

edited 2nd Nov '17 11:43:20 AM by johnnye

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1987: Nov 2nd 2017 at 1:03:36 PM

Monks got fixed in Pathfinder, mostly by changing Flurry of Blows to be more likely to actually hit people. At max level, a 3.5 monk's Flurry of Blows is +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 (five attacks), while a Pathfinder monk's is +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 (seven attacks).

Also remember that Armor Class includes dodging. It's just that it's much easier to increase your actual armor than your ability to dodge, so anyone who doesn't use armor ends up with a lower AC.

Matues Impossible Gender Forge Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Impossible Gender Forge
#1988: Nov 2nd 2017 at 4:51:50 PM

I'm away from my computer, but I'll pull up some threads from the GITP fora because they have a pretty longstanding issue with monks.

stevebat Since: Nov, 2009
#1989: Nov 15th 2017 at 2:01:22 PM

Monks specialties are not getting hit and resisting magic in a game where rocket tag starts up at around level 4 for other classes.

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johnnye Since: Jan, 2001
#1990: Nov 18th 2017 at 2:15:37 AM

So I don't know how surprise worked in 3.5 but in 5e, IIRC, it only affects those individuals who fail their perception checks - everyone else, on both sides, gets to take turns as normal. In which case it would seem perfectly reasonable that the Cleric and the two vamps next to V would get turns while the others are mown down by the order before they can react. Is it so different in the old edition that that wouldn't make sense?

shigmiya64 Somebody get this freaking duck away from me! from a settlement that needs our help, General Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Somebody get this freaking duck away from me!
#1991: Nov 18th 2017 at 11:04:05 AM

The cleric was the one vampire in the group who 100% should've been surprised if any were. He's the only one we see definitely being distracted.

edited 18th Nov '17 11:04:20 AM by shigmiya64

johnnye Since: Jan, 2001
#1992: Nov 19th 2017 at 5:09:58 AM

Narratively, sure. Mechanically, he's presumably got the highest Wis.

johnnye Since: Jan, 2001
#1993: Jun 6th 2018 at 2:32:12 AM

In the main thread people are discussing Hilgya's minimum Wisdom based on the level of spells she's cast. How does that work in 3.5e? In 5e you could have a caster with 6 Wis and they'd still be able to cast any spell of a certain level on their list, they'd just cast it with an awful attack bonus/save DC.

Matues Impossible Gender Forge Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Impossible Gender Forge
#1994: Jun 6th 2018 at 2:58:57 AM

In 3.5e, you require a minimum number in your casting stat to cast spells.

It’s basically (10 + spell level), so if a caster can cast level 7 spells, they need to have at least a 17 Charisma/Wisdom/Intelligence/etc

johnnye Since: Jan, 2001
#1995: Jun 6th 2018 at 5:23:46 AM

That... makes a certain amount of sense. One thing to be a level 20 Wizard, but if you're not a very good one it's hard to cast the most powerful spells in the world.

I suppose their reasoning for removing it was that there are plenty of incentives for maximising your casting stat, and if you really don't want to for some reason, that's your call and you'll pay the price when you waste your 9th level slot on a spell the enemy easily saves against.

Kayeka from Amsterdam Since: Dec, 2009
#1996: Jun 6th 2018 at 6:08:45 AM

Yeah, but the best spells don't have a save to begin with.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1997: Jun 6th 2018 at 9:13:34 AM

Note that this is why Belkar can't cast spells. Rangers cast off Wisdom, and since his Wisdom is lower than 10, he can't even cast 0-level spells.

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#1998: Jun 6th 2018 at 12:09:49 PM

Which is something that was explored early on.

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johnnye Since: Jan, 2001
#1999: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:11:02 PM

Looking at the text of dominate person, it doesn't actually specify that the target stops following its last command when the caster dies. Unless that's a general rule of spellcasting?

Also, interestingly, it says that protection from evil only prevents the target following commands, but doesn't block or dispel the domination itself. It doesn't say what the target does if not being commanded, though — in 5e they're charmed, so can't attack the caster, but 3.5e doesn't seem to have anything along those lines. Any chance of Belkar switching his clasp on while dominated? (I'm assuming it hasn't been dispelled, since the magic item would need to be targeted directly, right?)

edited 11th Jun '18 7:11:30 PM by johnnye

Gilphon Untrustworthy from The Third Sound Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Untrustworthy
#2000: Jun 11th 2018 at 8:11:59 PM

I've been assuming that was dispelled, because otherwise he should've been able to avoid the domination.

But really, that sounds like the best plan they've got- Roy should target the one controlling Belkar in the hopes that a) that releases him, b) the clasp hasn't been dispelled and c) they can do all that before Minrah goes down so they can heal V. And then focus fire on Greg, because the spawn will be easy to clean up once he's down- it's doubtful the Hilgya would roll a second natural 1 on her Will save, after all.

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