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The Order of the Stick: Rules Discussion

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This is the thread for discussing Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition rules and how they may or may not apply to The Order of the Stick.

Discuss away, and please keep it civil. Discussion of the comic itself — plot, characters, and so forth — goes here.

    Basic facts for context: 
  • OOTS is a webcomic set in an RPG Mechanics 'Verse based on Dungeons & Dragons version 3.5, with a custom setting and cosmology, using mainly Open Gaming License (OGL) and homebrew content.
  • Tropers unfamiliar with D&D 3.5 may wish to visit http://www.d20srd.org/ to learn the details of the system or look up terminology. We will assume discussion to be about the D&D 3.5 rules unless stated otherwise.
  • The author has specifically stated that, while he attempts to work within the letter of the rules as much as possible, OOTS is at heart a story and story trumps rules. This is a cautionary statement against overanalyzing.
  • Any discussion of D&D cosmology should acknowledge that OOTS is entirely homebrew in this regard and nothing about it in any of the core rulebooks or supplemental material can be assumed to be canon.

Edited by wingedcatgirl on Feb 22nd 2024 at 11:46:50 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#1926: Jun 22nd 2016 at 7:14:32 AM

I can't imagine it'd be that hard, either. They're the fleshless bones of a Squishy Mage. How strong can they—

Oh, right. Liches have magic super-strength, don't they?

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1928: Jun 22nd 2016 at 3:56:08 PM

The lich in the illustration doesn't look fleshless.

hcobb Since: Jan, 2001
#1929: Jun 27th 2016 at 6:32:16 AM

Overpowered Paladin mechanics on a different forum, in response to question about Miko.

"He gave up quite a lot to shine once or twice a day." http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/63850/paladin-multi-attack-smite-overpowered

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1930: Jun 27th 2016 at 6:41:32 AM

[up][up] Well, Xykon is definitely fleshless, and I'm pretty sure the SRD describes liches as "skeletal", so either that image is taking license or there are various ways for them to appear.

[up] Paladins are highly specialized characters. It makes them weak as generalists.

edited 27th Jun '16 6:42:02 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#1931: Jun 27th 2016 at 12:45:05 PM

Liches can have a variety of appearances. I think Xykon deliberately tore his flesh off after he became a Lich. Others just allow nature to take its course, but since they're effectively mummified it can take a long time.

In the "Fantasy Ancient Egypt" setting, Liches are more commonly Clerics than arcane spellcasters, and tend to smell more like incense and spices than rotting flesh. They will often wear elaborate masks and other garments to conceal their true appearance.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#1932: Jun 27th 2016 at 1:09:41 PM

When Xykon becomes a lich, we see his skin crack and then explode off him. It's depicted as part of the lich process.

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1933: Jun 27th 2016 at 1:12:26 PM

That's artistic license; no such event is part of the rules (or the flavor text) of the SRD description of liches.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1934: Jun 28th 2016 at 4:09:54 PM

The 3.5 Monster Manual describes a lich as "a gaunt and skeletal humanoid with withered flesh stretched tight against horribly visible bones."

johnnye Since: Jan, 2001
#1935: Aug 27th 2016 at 10:07:10 AM

Something occurred to me the other day looking at the "Divine Intervention" mechanic. Did it exist in 3.5e? Because the strip where Durkon gets Thor to destroy the trees with a crack of thunder looks like it could be that. He asks his god for a specific effect outside of his own abilities, there's an element of uncertainty whether it's going to succeed or not, then Thor grants his request.

Durkon doesn't appear to know that he's invoking such an ability, he just tries to cast a spell knowing that what he's asking for isn't really covered by that spell and hoping that Thor will give him what he wants anyway.

Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#1936: Aug 27th 2016 at 2:25:58 PM

The only way that a Cleric can ask for divine intervention, by RAW, is by casting Miracle (A ninth level spell).

If a deity is statted up, then there's nothing rules-based that prevents them from intervening in a situation- provided (if we're using Deities and Demigods) they have the correct Divine Salient Abilities.

So other than just praying for intervention (with about the same success rate of any pious person), then Miracle is the only way for a cleric to get direct divine intervention on demand.

Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#1937: Aug 29th 2016 at 1:19:54 AM

In other words gods can just do whatever they feel like because they are also in a monster manual-esque situation.

Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#1938: Aug 29th 2016 at 9:25:58 AM

In the strip he's casting Control Weather, which only changes the weather and can't do damage. The actual effect is a sonic attack from a lightning strike. There is a feat that allows a spellcaster to change the energy type of a spell, but that's not what happened there.

Burlew really only cares about the rules to the extent they further his story or make a good joke, and the strip does Lampshade the fact that the result of the spell isn't in the rules. Thor tells the guy complaining to shut up.

So the effect of summoning a bolt of lightning to do a massive sonic attack on a bunch of trees is effectively a Miracle. Storm of Vengeance could also count, or even Firestorm with Sonic damage substituted for Fire damage.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
johnnye Since: Jan, 2001
#1939: Aug 29th 2016 at 11:49:25 AM

Seems that the answer to my initial question is a flat "no" — Durkon can't be unwittingly using the Divine Intervention ability because that doesn't exist in this edition. Absent that idea, it looks like the most likely explanation is the straightforward one presented by the comic — Durkon tried to cast a spell hoping for an unorthodox outcome, and Thor independently decided to help him out.

I find it unlikely that he's casting some other spell — he's explicitly trying to cast "control weather", and he could hardly cast something entirely different by accident.

edited 29th Aug '16 11:50:02 AM by johnnye

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#1940: Aug 29th 2016 at 12:00:29 PM

[up]Most irregularities regarding Durkon's interactions with Thor have a very simple core reason: drunk Thor was drunk. tongue

johnnye Since: Jan, 2001
#1941: Nov 24th 2016 at 11:37:40 AM

The subject of Paladin feats came up in the main thread, and I got to wondering... could a Pally who'd run out of Smite Evil's use Lay On Hands to hurt undead?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
johnnye Since: Jan, 2001
#1943: Nov 24th 2016 at 11:50:34 AM

Oh, well that's more straightforward than I expected :D

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#1944: Nov 24th 2016 at 11:52:19 AM

To use it against the undead for damaging, you have to make a melee touch attack.

Being part-Monk like Miko probably synergizes really well with that. Or it would if not for the fact that Lay on Hands heals/damages undead an amount equal to your Paladin level * Charisma bonus, and Miko has the Charisma of garbage.

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Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#1945: Nov 28th 2016 at 2:49:45 PM

A Paladin character in a game I ran once did that to a Lich. The rules as I recall didn't state whether the target could save against it, so I ruled that the Lich couldn't save. So he hugged the Lich and burned all of his Lay on Hands into it.

edited 28th Nov '16 2:50:00 PM by Lawyerdude

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1946: Nov 28th 2016 at 3:07:34 PM

Nope, it doesn't allow a saving throw. If you succeed in the touch attack, it automatically affects the target.

[up]I imagine that you narrated a rather impressive effect for that.

edited 28th Nov '16 3:08:05 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Michael So that's what this does Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
So that's what this does
#1947: Nov 28th 2016 at 5:08:02 PM

[up][up][up]Miko had some amount of charisma, as evidenced by Roy's initial reaction to her.

What's more interesting about Charisma is the list of powers O-Chul can't use due to his Charisma dump stat.

johnnye Since: Jan, 2001
#1948: Sep 27th 2017 at 9:44:27 AM

How do drastically mixed-level parties work with CR? What about XP division? Are there rules or guidelines, or is it just up to the DM to try to balance things?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1949: Sep 27th 2017 at 11:07:06 AM

Since we're talking about 3.5, then yes, there are specific rules for it. I'm not familiar with systems newer than that. Note that I may be slightly off on some of these because I don't have a DMG in front of me and the d20 SRD doesn't include the XP tables.

To determine the XP award per character, do the following:

  • Determine the party's average Effective Character level (ECL), which is the sum of their individual ECL divided by 4 (the size of party that the XP tables are balanced around).
    • A character's ECL is typically the sum of their natural hit dice note , class levels, and level adjustment.
  • For each threat in the encounter, determine its Challenge Rating (CR). A threat can be a monster, a trap, or anything else that poses a challenge.
    • Start with the base CR.
    • Increase the CR by 2 for each doubling of the number of threats of that CR in the encounter.
  • For each character in the encounter and each threat in the encounter, cross-reference their individual ECL against the XP table for that threat's CR. If the CR is too high or low, there will be a — on the table, meaning that the character should not normally be awarded XP for that encounter.
  • Multiply the resulting amount by the ratio of the character's ECL to the party's average ECL.

The result of this is that a lower-level character will earn more base XP for any particular CR of threat, but will have a higher divisor to total XP earned because their contribution to the party's ECL is lower. Also, a party with more than four members will earn less XP per member, and vice versa, for any given threat, which is reasonable as more characters equals a stronger party.

Sample calculation (using made-up numbers):

  1. You have a 4-character party with ECLs 5, 10, 15, 20. The party's average ECL is 12.5.
  2. They face four CR 10 monsters. The formula provides a CR of 14 for these.
  3. Player A's ECL 5 against CR 14 indicates no award. The DM would have to adjudicate if they meaningfully participated and, if so, what award they should get.
  4. Player B's ECL 10 against CR 14 indicates an award of 1400 XP. Their ratio of ECL to party ECL is 0.8, so they get 1400 * 0.8 = 1120 XP.
  5. Player C's ECL 15 against CR 14 indicates an award of 800 XP. Their ratio of ECL to party ECL is 1.2, so they get 800 * 1.2 = 960 XP.
  6. Player D's ECL 20 against CR 14 indicates no award. They are too powerful to earn XP from an encounter of this difficulty.

Edited because I forgot that the rules don't combine the CRs of all the threats, but award XP separately for each.

edited 27th Sep '17 11:59:34 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
shigmiya64 Somebody get this freaking duck away from me! from a settlement that needs our help, General Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Somebody get this freaking duck away from me!
#1950: Sep 27th 2017 at 11:33:50 AM

What ARE hit dice? I don't understand quite what it means. I know you roll hit dice to determine how many extra hit points you gain when you go up a level, but there's always talk about how this monsters has this many hit dice, or it doesn't have enough hit dice to give XP, or too many hit dice to be affected by this spell, etc. Is the DM actually supposed to roll dice to determine how many hit points every monster has when you fight it? Did monsters in 3.5 not have levels, so hit dice count was used instead as a measurement for power?


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