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The Order of the Stick: Rules Discussion

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This is the thread for discussing Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition rules and how they may or may not apply to The Order of the Stick.

Discuss away, and please keep it civil. Discussion of the comic itself — plot, characters, and so forth — goes here.

    Basic facts for context: 
  • OOTS is a webcomic set in an RPG Mechanics 'Verse based on Dungeons & Dragons version 3.5, with a custom setting and cosmology, using mainly Open Gaming License (OGL) and homebrew content.
  • Tropers unfamiliar with D&D 3.5 may wish to visit http://www.d20srd.org/ to learn the details of the system or look up terminology. We will assume discussion to be about the D&D 3.5 rules unless stated otherwise.
  • The author has specifically stated that, while he attempts to work within the letter of the rules as much as possible, OOTS is at heart a story and story trumps rules. This is a cautionary statement against overanalyzing.
  • Any discussion of D&D cosmology should acknowledge that OOTS is entirely homebrew in this regard and nothing about it in any of the core rulebooks or supplemental material can be assumed to be canon.

Edited by wingedcatgirl on Feb 22nd 2024 at 11:46:50 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#251: Jun 14th 2012 at 2:25:36 PM

Given the spells Durkon has been known to prepare, his best role in a trap/ambush situation is to hide as well as he can (which is not very) and whip out some Thor's Might once combat is engaged.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#252: Jun 14th 2012 at 2:54:52 PM

Durkon's domains are Good and something else. Maybe Wind, based on Control Winds, but he's used a bunch of things that you wouldn't expect a Cleric to be able to do normally, so a common speculation is that he has a homebrew 'Thor' domain.

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#253: Jun 14th 2012 at 2:58:03 PM

Um: it's not a wild bit of speculation to say Thor = many weather-related phenomena. Wind, clouds, thunder, lightning... it's all good.

dazai Since: Jan, 2001
#254: Jun 18th 2012 at 2:19:58 PM

Is there an actual domain list for Thor in Dnd?

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#255: Jun 18th 2012 at 4:25:09 PM

There is not. Or at least not in core. It's just a speculation to explain why Durkon has some spells that you wouldn't expect him to.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#256: Aug 10th 2012 at 3:24:39 PM

A question came up in the other thread about the value of Elan's bard song versus his own contribution in combat.

I did some spreadsheet math to work things out. Let's assume the following stats for each character. These are grossly simplified, of course.

  • Elan: Attack Bonus +17/12/7 (11/6/1 BAB, 3 Dex, 3 enhancement), damage 1d6+9 (3 enh, 6 Cha), crit 15-20 (x2)
  • Roy: Attack Bonus +26/21/16 (14/9/4 BAB, 6 Str, 5 enh, 1 weapon focus), damage 2d6+13 (6 Str, 5 enh, 2 weapon specialization), crit 19-20 (x2)

If both attack a target with AC 31, Elan inflicts an average of 6.19 damage per round, while Roy inflicts an average of 30.6 damage per round, counting critical hits. If Elan's bard song gives Roy a +1 bonus to attacks, Roy's damage goes up to 33.6 per round, about half of what Elan contributes solo. If Elan's bard song goes up to +2, Roy's damage is 36.6 per round, or roughly even with Elan's contribution.

That's just Roy alone, not counting the effect of the song on Haley, Belkar, and/or Durkon, and also not taking into account the additional bonuses to defensive stats.

Interestingly, Elan's potential to contribute via direct melee goes up dramatically as the armor class of the target(s) they are fighting goes down. Against hard to hit targets, he's better off singing. Against "soft" targets, he's better off fighting.

Edited to fix an error.

edited 10th Aug '12 3:54:14 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#257: Aug 10th 2012 at 3:27:54 PM

[up] ...DAMN. I think they need you in NASA.

I'm baaaaaaack
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#258: Aug 10th 2012 at 3:37:01 PM

That's really not all that impressive-you can actually create a fairly simple sheet in Excel where you can measure the marginal contribution to damage per round of singing versus directly attacking, after all, for any given AC value. I should note that this is a bit of a false dichotomy though-for instance, Elan's positioning is important as it's possible to flank enemies.

I can't remember what flanking did in 3E though. Was it just a +2 bonus to hit? Well, that alone is better than bard song, though again since Bard Song can affect Belkar and Durkon as well, that's not necessarily true there.

Do we know that Elan's BAB is +10? I would have imagined Daring Swordsman, at the least, granted a flat +1 per level to hit, but I don't know how many levels of it he has.

edited 10th Aug '12 3:37:50 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#259: Aug 10th 2012 at 3:41:09 PM

I had to check my math to make sure I was factoring critical hits in properly. What I concluded (which I should have from the beginning but needed to double-check) is that attack bonuses only affect the damage contribution from critical hits if your chance to hit without the bonus is lower than your critical threat range.

Roy only gets 1% additional damage from critical hits, while Elan gets a whopping 9%, but that assumes Elan can hit the target in the first place. Anything Roy has a hard time hitting is almost impossible for Elan, and anything Elan can hit easily is like tissue paper for Roy.

I was assuming that Dashing Swordsman follows a 2/3 BAB progression, and that Elan has one level of it and 14 levels of Bard (not that it matters in that scenario). If it's a 1/1 BAB progression, than his BAB is 11/6/1 and his damage contribution in the above math is 6.19 per round.

I also placed Roy at Fighter 14 since he's one level behind the rest of the Order.

edited 10th Aug '12 3:43:17 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#260: Aug 10th 2012 at 3:45:51 PM

2/3?

3E used 1/2, 3/4, and 1 for BAB progression.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#261: Aug 10th 2012 at 3:47:34 PM

God damnit, I'm thinking of saving throws.

Well, that still places Elan at 11 (or 12 if he has two levels of Dashing Swordsman).

edited 10th Aug '12 3:50:35 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#262: Aug 10th 2012 at 3:49:08 PM

Well, the real question is how many "missed" levels he has. He obvious has both levels 1 and 5 (the "dead" levels BAB in Bard) and possibly 9. My guess would be that Dashing Swordsman does have a flat +1 per level advancement. So assuming Elan is 15th level, he has +12 (Bard 12/Dashing Swordsman 3) or +13 (Bard 8/Dashing Swordsman 7).

If he's a Bard 13/DS 2 or Bard 14/DS 1, then his BAB is only +11, yeah.

That's one of the issues with 3E; there's "chokepoint" levels, and lots of stuff is front weighted. If all you wanted was to max your saves you'd just take 1 level in every class in existence, since each class gives at least +2 to a saving throw (and some more than a single save). There's no "fractional" bonuses.

edited 10th Aug '12 3:50:48 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#264: Aug 10th 2012 at 3:51:31 PM

I have to make up for my earlier mistake about rapier damage die by going into needless detail about potential BA Bs Elan could have :P

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#265: Aug 10th 2012 at 3:55:42 PM

That same plan of maxing saves by multiclassing also causes you to have a horrible BAB since you will be getting all the empty level 1's. So it balances out to a certain extent.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#266: Aug 10th 2012 at 4:04:47 PM

Well, there is that. There's not enough full BAB classes to be able to get the benefits of both I'm afraid.

'course, you can do the thog thing and go Barbarian/Fighter. Then there's Warblade and Crusader (Tome of Battle), and Samurai.

Adannor (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#267: Aug 10th 2012 at 6:05:27 PM

So Senior Vorpal Kickasso has insane saves? [lol]

edited 10th Aug '12 6:05:41 PM by Adannor

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#268: Aug 10th 2012 at 6:32:55 PM

[up]Noooo... "is just insane" covers that one... wink

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#269: Aug 10th 2012 at 8:24:49 PM

No, he took 1/13 of a level in each class. Since there's no actual rules for that, he's just a bad joke.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
dazai Since: Jan, 2001
#270: Aug 11th 2012 at 7:49:47 AM

So..are there Bard spells that can cause direct damage or is it all buffs and illusions?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#271: Aug 11th 2012 at 7:56:44 AM

d20 SRD: Bard Spells

For direct damage spells, the Bard has a small number of options:

  • Level 2: Sound Burst — 1d8 sonic damage
  • Level 4: Shout — 5d6 sonic damage
  • Level 5: Nightmare — 1d10 damage, but it takes 10 minutes to cast and requires a sleeping target, so not really useful in combat.
  • Level 6: Greater Shout — 10d6 sonic damage

That's about it from core. They have access to all the Summon Monster spells, though.

Edit: Is it just me or is Nightmare kind of a puny spell? Its only useful function seems to be for evil characters to screw around with the PC's, and possibly as way to preemptively deprive arcane casters of spell slots. There's no way I could see a PC Bard ever selecting it as one of their known spells.

edited 11th Aug '12 8:03:52 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Adannor (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#272: Aug 11th 2012 at 7:56:45 AM

He can have direct damage spells... But that will be low damage.

Ninja :V

He is also too low level to have the Greater Shout at all.

edited 11th Aug '12 7:59:17 AM by Adannor

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#273: Aug 11th 2012 at 9:05:09 AM

It's worth noting that we know his 5th level spells, and neither of them is Nightmare.

What's weird, though, is that Neutralize Poison is the only 4th level spell we've ever seen him use, even though it's the last one he got.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#274: Aug 11th 2012 at 9:07:34 AM

He doesn't have the guts to cast Phantasmal Killer.

Wait, is that even a bard spell?

Adannor (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#275: Aug 11th 2012 at 9:30:49 AM

^Nope. He doesn't have access to it.


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