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I applied the Bechdel Test to my writing...

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HungryJoe Gristknife from Under the Tree Since: Dec, 2009
Gristknife
#1: Mar 8th 2012 at 2:22:00 AM

...and everything I'm remotely happy with has failed.

I blame it in large part on me adhering maybe a little too closely to "Write what you know." I know what it's like being a white guy, so that's what I use. Portraying varying ethnicities is not my strong suit either.

Oddly though, I seem to have a penchant for writing about fellows with a blue collar background, despite being from a fairly well off setting myself.

I'm not sure if this is something I should worry about. Admittedly, I haven't written anything decent that's long enough to have more than a few characters, so I guess it's possible that when I undertake something longer I may naturally avoid this.

And while I don't feel "guilty" for my writing being male oriented, I'm afraid I may have reason to worry if I have a tendency to let that be overpowering.

So, I guess I'm asking if I should worry about this and work on it, or just see if it will happen for me naturally?

Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.
TheBatPencil from Glasgow, Scotland Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#2: Mar 8th 2012 at 2:56:52 AM

I'm not sure if this is something I should worry about

It isn't.

Personally I think that things like the Bechdel Test only encourages tokenism. And that's worse, IMO. Or at least not any bettter. If something that'd pass the "test" develops naturally then happy days, but if it doesn't then don't try and force it.

And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#3: Mar 8th 2012 at 2:59:57 AM

Actually, to be honest I don't think the Bechdel Test is not that hard to pass.

Just have two women trying to solve a plot relevant problem that does not involve men. The one at the top of my head is to destroy a Cthulhu-like monster whose nature will distort reality and destroy the world. Or have an Amazon Bridgade plotting against each other, either literally or figuratively in an office setting. Or just change a couple of male characters and turn them female (and lesbians). The test says nothing about women having to behave in ways that society expects women to behave.

edited 8th Mar '12 3:00:23 AM by IraTheSquire

HungryJoe Gristknife from Under the Tree Since: Dec, 2009
Gristknife
#4: Mar 8th 2012 at 3:06:41 AM

Yeah, I hate contrived things too.

Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#5: Mar 8th 2012 at 3:09:37 AM

I think the Bechdel test is supposed to be useful on a large scale, rather than for individual works.

That is, one work failing it doesn't matter much, but if a whole genre fails it then that matters.

Anyway, you'd be surprised how well gender-flipping the occasional character can work out.

Be not afraid...
Exelixi Lesbarian from Alchemist's workshop Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Lesbarian
#6: Mar 8th 2012 at 3:15:12 AM

When you make your cast of characters, don't assign them a sex until everything's plotted out. Then arbitrarily choose a few characters to be female. Boom.

Mura: -flips the bird to veterinary science with one hand and Euclidean geometry with the other-
HungryJoe Gristknife from Under the Tree Since: Dec, 2009
Gristknife
#7: Mar 8th 2012 at 3:17:39 AM

I'm not a very good plotter though.

I prefer to come up with characters, let them interact, and throw stuff at them.

This doesn't lend itself well to arbitrary gender-flips.

Although I guess more minor characters might be easier to pull this off with.

Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#8: Mar 8th 2012 at 3:49:50 AM

Actually, to be honest I don't think the Bechdel Test is not that hard to pass.

Just have two women trying to solve a plot relevant problem that does not involve men. The one at the top of my head is to destroy a Cthulhu-like monster whose nature will distort reality and destroy the world. Or have an Amazon Bridgade plotting against each other, either literally or figuratively in an office setting. Or just change a couple of male characters and turn them female (and lesbians). The test says nothing about women having to behave in ways that society expects women to behave.

It's not supposed to be hard to pass. The point is that despite being so easy to pass, so few works do.

Also, it's supposed to encourage women behaving in ways that society doesn't expect women to behave. That's the whole point. It was created in an era when society expected women to have their lives revolve around men. Arguably that hasn't changed much.

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#9: Mar 8th 2012 at 3:51:37 AM

The test exists to make a point about fiction in general: look how many things don't pass. Applying it to specific works and judging them based on whether they pass or fail is missing that point.

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MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#10: Mar 8th 2012 at 6:07:49 AM

Well, ask yourself this: Why does it fail?

Some things will just inherently fail, due to premise, and that's not always a bad thing.

Read my stories!
washington213 Since: Jan, 2013
#11: Mar 8th 2012 at 6:16:59 AM

Some stories just don't have a female character in a prominent role. It's not always a necessity.

MyGodItsFullofStars Since: Feb, 2011
#12: Mar 8th 2012 at 6:46:59 AM

It really depends on what works for the story. If your story contains two prominent female characters, then you should absolutely have it pass the Bechdel Test. If it doesn't, you don't really have to worry about it.

MEPT72 Vote is No from Boston, MA Since: Sep, 2009
Vote is No
#13: Mar 8th 2012 at 6:54:24 AM

Also I'd say the size of your cast is going to make a big difference. If you have only 3 main characters, and the story is really focused on their interactions, then it's going to be harder to have two female characters have conversations that don't mention men, even if it's two women one man, if all of the plot is about their interactions so forth it's likely that third character will come up in conversations. At that though, if there is or isn't it probably will only be a superficial difference.

It's a good test when applied over a large N, but in an individual case like most general but steadfast rule it falls apart.

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Landstander God Of Cake from Somewhere else Since: Jan, 2001
God Of Cake
#14: Mar 8th 2012 at 7:21:18 AM

Yeah just because an individual work passes the test doesn't guarantee that's it's some sort of feminist work, nor does a work failing mean that it's automatically sexist. The point is to think about why so few works manage to pass at all.

Emperor Wu liked cake, but not exploding cake!
HungryJoe Gristknife from Under the Tree Since: Dec, 2009
Gristknife
#15: Mar 8th 2012 at 7:23:45 AM

Okay, that assuages some of my fears.

Although I probably should try doing a bit more with female characters in the future, just so I know that I can write 'em.

Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.
0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#16: Mar 8th 2012 at 7:33:26 AM

I'm curious about the point where you said, "Portraying varying ethnicities is not my strong suit either." Why not just write the characters and not worry about ethnicity until it's all done? (Unless their ethnicity is relevant to the plot.)

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
MEPT72 Vote is No from Boston, MA Since: Sep, 2009
Vote is No
#17: Mar 8th 2012 at 7:36:47 AM

Perhaps he meant capturing cultural differences etc, and that every character seems like a middle class white guy even if they're supposed to be someone who grew up in a different class and culture even if it was part of the greater american meta-culture. Especially if you write everyone as a white New Englander when you're trying to write someone who grew up poor in Texas etc. That's my guess but ethnicity and gender can matter to character in some ways due to differences in inculturation and upbringing.

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MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#18: Mar 8th 2012 at 8:12:13 AM

However, if it really bothers you, an easy way to pass is have a female main character buying something from a female extra.

Of course, that misses the point of it entirely, but hey.*

edited 8th Mar '12 8:16:32 AM by MrAHR

Read my stories!
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#19: Mar 8th 2012 at 12:45:46 PM

I'm not a very good plotter though. I prefer to come up with characters, let them interact, and throw stuff at them. This doesn't lend itself well to arbitrary gender-flips. Although I guess more minor characters might be easier to pull this off with.

That shouldn't be a problem. Part of the point of the Bechdel Test is that female characters should not necessarily behave in ways that people expects them to, or the characters' gender should not be a factor in what they do. So just give them female or gender neutral names and change their pronouns from 'he' to 'she' and 'his' to 'her'. Over thinking about how changing the gender of characters will affect other things kind of misses the point.

feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#20: Mar 8th 2012 at 6:20:40 PM

Seconding Ira, because if you're only writing men who act the way men are expected to act and women who act the way women are expected to act, you're missing out not just on men who act like women are expected to and women who act like men are expected to, but on the many types of men and women who don't act like anyone's expected to.

(To rephrase that in slightly clearer terms, you're severely limiting your cast if you don't include character types that appear just as rarely among men as among women.)

edited 8th Mar '12 6:22:04 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
HersheleOstropoler You gotta get yourself some marble columns from BK.NY.US Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Less than three
You gotta get yourself some marble columns
#21: Mar 8th 2012 at 7:56:46 PM

Girl-girl porn can pass the Bechdel Test without being remotely feminist. So seconding all the people pointing out that at the level of individual works it's not all that significant.

The child is father to the man —Oedipus
ekuseruekuseru 名無しさん from Australia Since: Oct, 2009
名無しさん
#22: Mar 9th 2012 at 12:39:31 AM

That test is rubbish made up by the Cultural Marxists to bring down the SWM master-race.

MyGodItsFullofStars Since: Feb, 2011
#23: Mar 9th 2012 at 5:36:06 AM

"However, if it really bothers you, an easy way to pass is have a female main character buying something from a female extra."

Girl 1: Hello, I'd like to purchase a vibrator.

Girl 2: Certainly. Would you like it to be gift-wrapped?

Girl 1: Of course, it is a present for my boyfriend.

Girl 2: How is he?

Did we pass the Bechdel Test? ...crap.

Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#24: Mar 9th 2012 at 5:40:28 AM

Now the question I have is... ... how on earth do you pronounce "Bechdel"?

TheBatPencil from Glasgow, Scotland Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#25: Mar 9th 2012 at 5:41:57 AM

[up] "Beck-del" I think?

And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)

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