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NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#1351: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:22:22 PM

[up]Language, please. If you want to crusade for decency, you should start by not swearing like a sailor in a "Family Friendly" forum.

joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#1352: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:25:58 PM

Prudes have a problem with sex in general. I don't. I have a problem with what misogynist pieces of shits such works are. But of course simply mindlessly yelling "Prudes!" makes for such a convenient accusation, eh?

Cool your jets there. While there many be a ocean of different politically between the two it still part of the same problem of deciding what work of fiction is 'going to far' for tv tropes.

hashtagsarestupid
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#1353: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:26:20 PM

[up][up]Granted, though still slightly missing the point. I'm no Moral Guardian , not in the sense the trope describes it, anyway. I couldn't care less about depictions of sex or cursing or whatever. But works condoning abuse, rape and torture? That's another thing all together.

[up]But you have to admit, "You Prude!" has been thrown around here a lot as a sorta convenient catch-all defence...

edited 6th Apr '12 7:27:50 PM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#1354: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:27:31 PM

The immediate issue is Google's standards in regards to hosting ads. A work being misogynist or being crappy is tangent to that, and for now we need to focus on the current problem. Once that is worked out, then you can campaign against works you don't think are appropriate.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#1355: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:27:35 PM

We're still not condoning the work by being pure neutral about it. That makes absolutely no sense.

That's false. So no, there is no problem.

Sorry about the prude stuff, but we're specifically going for a No Lewdness No Prudishness policy. Taking down works because they're about sex is prudish in that way. It would be the same for taking down normal works because they're not sexy enough.

[up] They actually can't host Ads on those pages anyway. So it's not as much of a problem as people are making it.

edited 6th Apr '12 8:07:41 PM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread
NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#1356: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:29:28 PM

[up][up][up] Just as "You pervert" or "You creep". Both strawmen accusations are just as bad, and both should be avoided the same.

Akagikiba Surfing the forums from Midwest Since: Feb, 2012
Surfing the forums
#1357: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:33:07 PM

But you have to admit, "You Prude!" has been thrown around here a lot as a sorta convenient catch-all defence...

I brought this up on another thread. I hate this defense because it disallows any serious thought on whether a work is acceptable or not.

"Hey guys, this rape trope is looking—"

"PRUDE!"

People have said it so much it's lost all meaning and all it does is make those people look like perverts that can't identify R-rated content. It damages our ability to clean up this wiki which is now, with the Google ads crisis, more important than ever! surprised

Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#1358: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:36:14 PM

The problem is that a lot of the people who have been advocating the most severe cuts to the questionable material have been doing so in a very...shall we say, over-the-top manner that's coming across as more Moral Guardian-ish than constructive, along with leveling accusations of creepiness and perversity to the people wanting that material kept.

edited 6th Apr '12 7:37:46 PM by Willbyr

joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#1359: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:37:50 PM

But you have to admit, "You Prude!" has been thrown around here a lot as a sorta convenient catch-all defence...

Yes you do have a point there, it is a overused strawman.

personally I think we just need to make it clear that tvtropes.org does not necessarily endorse 'hot'

works.

edited 6th Apr '12 7:38:35 PM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1360: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:41:54 PM

[up][up][up] You'll notice few of the people who called others out on creepiness have helped with the cleanup though.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#1361: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:46:13 PM

[up][up] Pretty much this.

We got it clear what's allowed. Now let's make sure people understand that we don't condone that crap regardless.

Quest 64 thread
Akagikiba Surfing the forums from Midwest Since: Feb, 2012
Surfing the forums
#1362: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:51:34 PM

That's true. What we need to do is take a step back and think about what those tropes do for our wiki. We have about fifty rape tropes, for Chrissakes. It's hard to maintain a acceptable and friendly image for this site when we obsessively catalog rape like it's going out of style. I know we're supposed to be documentors not judges but every trope page we make is part of the site's image. We can throw up our arms and say we just document works and we don't endorse any behaviour, but not many people are going to believe that when we have fifty rape pages.

If I was new to TV Tropes and saw the Rape Tropes index, I'd assume that a lot of the editors like it. That's my stance- what most newcomers would expect.smile

edited 6th Apr '12 7:55:13 PM by Akagikiba

NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#1363: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:53:23 PM

For a good comparison, what's the average standard on how many tropes do non-sexual activities and aspects of human behavior have?

Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#1364: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:54:29 PM

Depends how many actual tropes we have. I thought we had over 1,000 by now?

Quest 64 thread
Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#1365: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:56:09 PM

We have pages for all kinds of negative tropes besides just rape; singling them out is just being pedantic. If it exists as a trope, it's the wiki's job to catalogue it, except for the two issues that Eddie has deemed off limits. Our job right now is to neutralize the bad ones as much as we can.

[down] Thank you.

edited 6th Apr '12 7:58:14 PM by Willbyr

lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1366: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:56:35 PM

30 Rape Tropes (and many are misplaced since they have nothing to do with rape) within thousands of other tropes that are about the most innocent things are hardly indicative of the wiki. It's like saying everyone on the forums is a pervert because the Fetishes thread exists.

edited 6th Apr '12 7:57:15 PM by lu127

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Elbruno Mummy Woomy from Chile: Not As Dry As Space! Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Mummy Woomy
#1367: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:58:08 PM

[up] & [up][up]I was going to say exactly that.

edited 6th Apr '12 7:58:21 PM by Elbruno

"Yeah, it's a shame. Here we are in an underground cave with all these lasers, and instead of having a rave we're using it for evil."
HersheleOstropoler You gotta get yourself some marble columns from BK.NY.US Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Less than three
You gotta get yourself some marble columns
#1368: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:58:30 PM

Why are people who, they assure me, are not prudes arguing that we should remove tropes related to and works prominently featuring sex even if having those pages isn't causing problems with advertizers?

The child is father to the man —Oedipus
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#1369: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:58:55 PM

That's less than 3% of what we have. Best we can do is trim and de-creepify it as well as rename. Oh, wait, we're doing that already.

Issue is solved. No cutting required whatsoever.

edited 6th Apr '12 8:05:51 PM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread
Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#1370: Apr 6th 2012 at 8:05:05 PM

Let's dial back on all things accusatory; that's not helping anything and is only making friction.

animeg3282 Since: Jan, 2001
#1371: Apr 6th 2012 at 8:07:32 PM

Yea, let's all be pals. I mean, most of the problem is being reduced greatly by everyone working hard on the renames.

Akagikiba Surfing the forums from Midwest Since: Feb, 2012
Surfing the forums
#1372: Apr 6th 2012 at 8:48:49 PM

Will renames be enough though? I'm worried that this issue will Google Ads will arise again. I've been doing some work by making pages for heavy topics less creepy, but it's discouraging because it's hard illustrating topics with a sense of neutrality.

Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#1373: Apr 6th 2012 at 9:02:42 PM

Of course it will come up again, since we aren't addressing the underlying problems at all. We're just dressing them up nicely so it will look okay to Google. For now.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#1374: Apr 6th 2012 at 9:03:30 PM

You know, it is crises like these that make me wish that we had an equivalent to Wikipedia's Wikimedia Foundation, which (AFAIK, at least) allows it enough financial indepedence to not have to worry about the plug being pulled on it by outside parties like we do.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Autumncomet from the hive Since: Jan, 2011

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