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Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#1326: Apr 6th 2012 at 6:07:46 PM

Maybe we could also go beyond the current problems with Google and ask ourselves if we really want such crap on the wiki. The problem is not that readers stumbling over it may get offended; the problem is that we provide free advertisement to those scumbags.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1327: Apr 6th 2012 at 6:11:31 PM

Hmmm, the link indeed is free advertisement, so I'd say you're right on that count.

However, the existence of the page itself alone has never felt very advertising to me. Like other crappy fapfics it serves to show how terrible they are. The people I've asked about it only talk about the work in a mocking tone. It looks like the page makes it notorious.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
animeg3282 Since: Jan, 2001
#1328: Apr 6th 2012 at 6:12:03 PM

I think we're dealing with cultural clashes between those who believe that even young teenagers can't handle content that you can find in popular YA books or in comic books (yes, shoujo manga is for TEENAGERS, mostly. And yes, American teens read it. It's rated 13+ mostly) and those who are a little more flexible.

Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#1329: Apr 6th 2012 at 6:13:53 PM

In the day and age of Google and other search engines, it's not just a question of links anymore. A mere mention like this is advertisement. Word of mouth, basically. However, usually word of mouth spreads if people do endorse the things thusly advertised. And therein is the problem...

[up]No. It's not that. At least not for me. Age and age barriers are not the problem, or at least not the biggest. The problem is that some feel strongly (or at least I do) that "Saying nothing is an implicit condoning of matters".

edited 6th Apr '12 6:15:13 PM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1330: Apr 6th 2012 at 6:15:48 PM

I thought Google specifically said outbound links were the problem?

In all honesty, I think it's crap. I'm just not sure if "it's crap" is reason enough to nuke it.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#1331: Apr 6th 2012 at 6:17:11 PM

Hence why I said "Maybe we could also go beyond the current problems with Google" ;) Yes, outbound links are the current problem, and the one that needs to be fixed short term and in fact ASAP, but maybe we could ideally use this as an opportunity to take a good look at our wiki, what might be wrong it, and establish some standards? Not for Google's sake, but for our sake.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
animeg3282 Since: Jan, 2001
#1332: Apr 6th 2012 at 6:17:17 PM

Ah, I don't feel that way at all. I think many works are horrible, and should be nuked from orbit. But on the other hand, other people probably think MY favorite works are crap and should be nuked from orbit. Live and let live. It's a pluralistic society. (I'm from the US)

Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#1333: Apr 6th 2012 at 6:19:54 PM

Pluralism is the societal ideal here as well. But pluralism is not the same as moral relativism. Liking MLP despite not being a little girl (and people accepting that) would be pluralism. Saying, basically, "all tropes are equal" is moral relativism. As I've said in the other thread, the biggest problem in this regard is IMO the "no negativity" rule...

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1334: Apr 6th 2012 at 6:26:03 PM

I think the no negativity rule is important because of Acceptable Targets works. Not so much about reprehensible things like Pokegirls, but works like The Inheritance Cycle, which everyone seems to think they're okay to bash because of their alleged poor quality.

I really think we need a disclaimer on the home page.

This wiki does not endorse the tropes it documents.

Dunno where that put would put crappy works though... :/

edited 6th Apr '12 6:26:36 PM by lu127

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
animeg3282 Since: Jan, 2001
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#1336: Apr 6th 2012 at 6:49:34 PM

Snuff Films and Torture Porn(we have their definitions, and that's it) are the only thing we won't document of Works.

That's Word of God.

So no, we're not going to break a rule (No Negativity) because some people can't keep their opinions off the main pages. To put it bluntly, if you can't handle that, you shouldn't be editing then.

Quest 64 thread
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#1337: Apr 6th 2012 at 6:53:46 PM

Still up to your old tricks, Hydronix...

Rules can be changed. And it's not about us or the readers, about who can "handle" that, it's about those abominations and the subhumans behind them. They should ideally be ignored and starved of reader/viewership. That's the point.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#1338: Apr 6th 2012 at 6:55:41 PM

What classes as Torture Porn? I mean what have a page on the moive Saw and that has a lot of Torture Porn in it.

hashtagsarestupid
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1339: Apr 6th 2012 at 6:56:29 PM

Umm, we have an entire page on what Torture Porn is, and we have stuff like Hostel...

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#1340: Apr 6th 2012 at 6:57:10 PM

[up][up] I think something among the lines of Agony In Pink, where the entire thing is nothing by someone being tortured and killed.

Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#1341: Apr 6th 2012 at 6:58:41 PM

It's all about the Readers here.

It's about the Editors following the rules to have the most informative website, not the most prudish one.

We are not going to prudify the website whatsoever. It's not an option at all. Clean up is fine, and that's all there is to it.

Pokegirls was cleaned up fine and it's a neutral page as is. Said by the Admin himself. Which just proves we can do it for all. I'm fine with keeping with the Wiki's goals.

The point of the No Negativity rule is to keep people from hating on stuff, regardless of what it is. It protects the entire website and every work. There are people who absolutely despite, for example(and this is true), Super Mario Bros and would vandalize the page. No Negativity prevents this problem.

It ain't to protect stuff people don't like, it's to protect against vandalism.

And what is wrong with having a neutral informational website? Sounds like the best thing for our readers.

[up] Yes. That's something we're not supposed to trope anymore.

[up][up] Likewise on that.

Which means we got more things to get ready to cut.

edited 6th Apr '12 7:00:07 PM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1342: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:05:12 PM

So, stuff like Agony In Pink is out?

No objections from me (although I admit I'm more than a little biased against them). If we can get Fast Eddie's reassurance that they are indeed off-limits, I'll go cutlisting crazy.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#1343: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:06:09 PM

Well, it should be.

I'd like to wait on his word before cutting any of that. It may have Grandfather Clause.

Quest 64 thread
TheFoxsCloak Since: Mar, 2011
#1344: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:09:47 PM

Can I suggest throwing this into the shredder as well?

Elbruno Mummy Woomy from Chile: Not As Dry As Space! Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Mummy Woomy
#1345: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:10:37 PM

WOAHWOAHWOAHWOAH! I completely despise those... things... But Eddie hasn't said anything about cutting work pages, and that's by no means the course of action that has been taken so far.

edited 6th Apr '12 7:10:50 PM by Elbruno

"Yeah, it's a shame. Here we are in an underground cave with all these lasers, and instead of having a rave we're using it for evil."
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1346: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:11:43 PM

As I said, we need confirmation that that particular type of work is out. Then we can make the move.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#1347: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:12:41 PM

He did say no Torture Porn. He has not specified if anything is allowed. It could be Fanfiction only(to cut).

As of right now, there is no cutting. At all. I wouldn't even say yet. Let's please wait before going cuthappy.

Quest 64 thread
TheFoxsCloak Since: Mar, 2011
#1348: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:12:42 PM

[up][up][up]Well, the ones posted are quiet blatantly Torture Porn, so we're just suggesting them in accordance with his statement of not documenting such things.

edited 6th Apr '12 7:14:02 PM by TheFoxsCloak

Elbruno Mummy Woomy from Chile: Not As Dry As Space! Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Mummy Woomy
#1349: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:15:27 PM

Eddie has been always against cutting work pages, as that goes against the site's goal of documenting fiction; the condition is that the whole thing has to be neutral. A decision like cutting works would need a damn good trigger.

"Yeah, it's a shame. Here we are in an underground cave with all these lasers, and instead of having a rave we're using it for evil."
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#1350: Apr 6th 2012 at 7:15:53 PM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

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