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Vegetarianism, pescetarianism, and so on

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Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#51: Feb 27th 2012 at 3:56:23 AM

@Loni Jay:

Hm. You are right, there is quite a lot of excessive sentimentalism with respect to animals. I still don't think that being unfazed by the sight of a slaughterhouse should be a requirement for eating meat, but I can agree that perhaps trying to remove the disconnect that you mention might be advisable.

@ekuseruekuseru:

Care to explain your reasoning?

edited 27th Feb '12 3:58:32 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#52: Feb 27th 2012 at 4:05:36 AM

Yeah... it's only one way that occurs to me to try and fix the problem. It might not work, of course - for every person who takes the info in and makes a decision, there will be others who'll feel terrible for a day and then shove it to the back of their mind and forget about it.

Be not afraid...
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#53: Feb 27th 2012 at 4:32:15 AM

Perhaps another possibility could be to encourage knowledge about animals and animal behaviour as it is in reality, instead of the vapid Disney-like point of view which is so popular nowadays?

For example, gestation crates for pig farming sound far less justifiable if one knows something about pig social behaviour and pig intelligence...

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
ekuseruekuseru 名無しさん from Australia Since: Oct, 2009
名無しさん
#54: Feb 27th 2012 at 5:39:17 AM

Meat is an important part of the human diet.

Environmentally, there are a few things. For instance, cows are big polluters, so it'd not be a bad plan to make sure they go to the slaughter faster in order to minimise the pollution. I would also imagine that land-use for agriculture would be better justified if you were eating the meat produced.

Ethically, also, it'd be a waste of the animal's life (which it will have and lose to agricultural ends anyway), thousands of years of domestication, etc., not to eat meat from livestock.

Falkon Lord of the Avians from the Sky Since: Feb, 2012
Lord of the Avians
#55: Feb 27th 2012 at 5:56:16 AM

Meat is important to the human diet. We are omnivores, it's true. But on that point, their importance can be removed totally through our usage of vitamins, or even just through usage of dairy and egg products(although, personally, I don't eat dairy, I can't say it isn't good for you.).

And on the pollution that cows cause, a major reason for that is their treatment(in most major meat production areas), and simply the fact that there are so many of them. This isn't because we don't eat enough of them, this is because, as a whole, we eat to much of them, which has led to the overproduction of cows, which has led to them becoming polluters. It is not because we don't eat enough.

edited 27th Feb '12 5:59:14 AM by Falkon

Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#56: Feb 27th 2012 at 5:56:41 AM

Meat is an important part of the human diet.
Historically? Yes, although it was generally nowhere as commonplace an aliment as it is in the modern western world. And the classes which consumed the most meat were not generally the healthiest — for example, medieval nobles were subject to far more diseases (gout, especially) than medieval monks.

But in any case, that matters little to me. There is solid experimental evidence (I'd link to the relevant articles, but you can find a reasonable summary on Wikipedia if you want) that vegetarians/pescetarians have some health advantages compared to carnivores, as long as they adopt a sensible diet, and in particular eating too much red meat has been linked to an array of unpleasant health problems. This is what I care about, not what is "natural" for humankind.

Environmentally, there are a few things. For instance, cows are big polluters, so it'd not be a bad plan to make sure they go to the slaughter faster in order to minimise the pollution. I would also imagine that land-use for agriculture would be better justified if you were eating the meat produced.
Except for the fact that cows have a limited lifespan, and they are raised according to economic demand.

Ethically, also, it'd be a waste of the animal's life (which it will have and lose to agricultural ends anyway), thousands of years of domestication, etc., not to eat meat from livestock.
I am not opposed to meat in general. However, I think — but that applies only to me, of course, I do not presume to say what others should do — that it would be better if it became some sort of luxury food: this would guarantee that livestock is better treated, and would actually improve its quality while reducing its quantity to sustainable levels.

edited 27th Feb '12 5:58:49 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
HungryJoe Gristknife from Under the Tree Since: Dec, 2009
Gristknife
#57: Feb 27th 2012 at 6:08:29 AM

Frutarians, on the other hand, are nuts.

Especially the ones who don't eat nuts.

Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#58: Feb 27th 2012 at 6:21:59 AM

Yeah. I'd say the same about raw foodism and all similar diets too — they strike me as being based more on wishful thinking and on very idealistic ideas of the "state of nature" than on sensible reasoning and careful cost/benefit analysis.

I am ambivalent on vegans. I have no intention of being one myself, and to be honest I think that a diet that forces you to take vitamin supplements in order to, you know, survive cannot possibly be a reasonable choice; but on the other hand, I can respect their commitment to avoid exploitation, even though I think it is at least in part misdirected.

edited 27th Feb '12 6:27:44 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
HungryJoe Gristknife from Under the Tree Since: Dec, 2009
Gristknife
#59: Feb 27th 2012 at 6:36:34 AM

When you extend morality to plants on an individual level you know you're in trouble.

Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.
Falkon Lord of the Avians from the Sky Since: Feb, 2012
Lord of the Avians
#60: Feb 27th 2012 at 6:42:24 AM

[up][up]With the exception of B12(certainly key, but it's still, as far as I know, the only one), getting the nutritions that you need(whether vitamin or otherwise) can be done somewhat easily. All you really need to do is figure out what you need, it's sources, and the amount of those sources you need, and then eat them.

As for B12, if I were, for whatever reason, to lose a source of the artificial stuff, I'd probably get chickens and get my B12 through 'em, once I figured out how to get the optimum levels out of an egg. I might even be willing to eat them when they get old, if I were to get over my queasiness about meat(it just looks nasty to me). But until that situation arises, I'll stick to being vegan.

edited 27th Feb '12 6:43:03 AM by Falkon

Pyroninja42 Forum Villain from the War Room Since: Jan, 2011
Forum Villain
#61: Feb 27th 2012 at 6:44:59 AM

I live 12 miles from the PETA HQ.

They aren't fun people.

edited 27th Feb '12 6:45:07 AM by Pyroninja42

"Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person that doesn't get it."
Falkon Lord of the Avians from the Sky Since: Feb, 2012
Lord of the Avians
#62: Feb 27th 2012 at 6:55:00 AM

[up] That's kind of scary sounding. I looked at their website the other day(seeing what I could have at some fast food chain.), first thing I see is them getting angry at Mario for wearing a "fur coat".

Not really something I would want to live that close to.

edited 27th Feb '12 6:55:40 AM by Falkon

ekuseruekuseru 名無しさん from Australia Since: Oct, 2009
名無しさん
#63: Feb 27th 2012 at 7:30:22 AM

I was just playing around.

You said something interesting, though, about meat becoming a luxury. How, exactly, would this happen? What seems likely is that even if the demand for meat dropped, the agricultural practices involved would not change to anything less efficient. At least, people simply wanting less meat can't make it a luxury. What people would need to want is much better meat (unlikely that such an inclination would become widespread), and in such quantities that it could not be produced (and therefore sold, therefore purchased) without incurring significant expense over regular meat. I would imagine, then, that the solution is to encourage people to eat more meat - to include high grade meat in their diets, while retaining the lower grade meat (something to compare with) (also, I doubt producers would encourage consumers to abandon one product in favour of another when they could just as well sell them both). At least, this is how things work out in the brief consideration I've given the matter, bearing in mind some vague tendencies in consumption and a very definite tendency towards profit-motivation in production.

What do you think?

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#64: Feb 27th 2012 at 8:25:09 AM

Considering meat production and sustinance is on the decline with shortages beginning across the globe, cutting back puts one ahead of the curve.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#65: Feb 27th 2012 at 8:40:07 AM

As much as I love animals and feel that people really, really need to learn to respect and treat the things with much greater kindness I find PETA fucking insane. ANIMALS HAVE FEELINGS AND SOULS TOO.

But making a commercial where a turkey terrorist has taken over a grocery store while threatening to kill the hostages if you don't stop eating turkey on Thanksgiving is not cool or helpful in any way. Nor is harassing people. Or declaring Mario evil. Or any other number of shit they did.

edited 27th Feb '12 8:41:07 AM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
TheWesterner Malicious from The Land of Fools Since: Oct, 2011
Malicious
#66: Feb 27th 2012 at 8:44:34 AM

@kay I wasn't trolling. If I was trolling I'd quote a piece of the Bible.

"One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables"

edited 27th Feb '12 8:44:45 AM by TheWesterner

I was wondering why frisbees got bigger as they got closer then it hit me.
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#67: Feb 27th 2012 at 9:41:54 AM

I was just playing around.
That's a relief, I was wondering if there had been some sort of serious miscommunication tongue

You said something interesting, though, about meat becoming a luxury. How, exactly, would this happen?
Well, I really have no plans for reforming society and the like. But for example, I could see something like this happening through rising expectations about meat quality.

High quality meat is really quite costly, cannot be produced very quickly, and generally requires animals to live in decent conditions. You don't get fine wine by growing grapes in greenhouses and pumping them with substances for making them grow faster: you need to grow them carefully and slowly, in an adequate environment, and really pay attention to plant health. The same holds for animal raising.

As I said, I'm not really out to reform the world on this; but if I were, I'd perhaps think that one should encourage people to try high quality meat, and just point out that the low-quality stuff is not only unhealthy, but also kind of mediocre.

edited 27th Feb '12 9:42:21 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#68: Feb 27th 2012 at 9:42:49 AM

@Westy

I meant the "I look down on people who DERP" crap. tongue

ACrackInTime Since: Aug, 2012
#69: Feb 27th 2012 at 9:45:25 AM

Meat cravings!

Really fancy a burger...

TheWesterner Malicious from The Land of Fools Since: Oct, 2011
Malicious
#70: Feb 27th 2012 at 10:01:03 AM

I actually don't like landmeat very much. But ribs are so delicious.

@kay Sorry.

I was wondering why frisbees got bigger as they got closer then it hit me.
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#71: Feb 27th 2012 at 9:15:22 PM

@Car: Good luck! While I disagree with certain ideas related to vegetarianism I have respect for people who believes in their principles strong enough to live a vegetarian life-style.

NLK Mo A Since: May, 2010
#72: Feb 27th 2012 at 9:24:14 PM

I see the point made by vegetarians, but damn, meat's just too damn tasty.

Likes many underrated webcomics
joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#73: Feb 28th 2012 at 4:54:37 AM

I like sausage myself, I just don't like seeing it be made.

hashtagsarestupid
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#74: Feb 28th 2012 at 5:04:45 AM

I really have no problems with seeing sausage being made: my grandpa was a butcher, and my grandma had chickens. I always thought it was kind of neat.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#75: Feb 28th 2012 at 5:08:21 AM

Not when it's fresh off the pig it isn't.

hashtagsarestupid

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