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LMage Since: May, 2011
#551: Apr 5th 2012 at 8:23:59 AM

I am more then a bit vexed by it, but we have to accept that the various Christians factions will never lose power with the masses until people just stop believing in what they preach, which isn't likely to happen in our or for many future lifetimes. If we acknowledge that, we are forced to accept that instigating change among the most powerful factions of Christianity will achieve more for the LGBT cause then waiting for them to fade away.

Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#552: Apr 5th 2012 at 8:27:38 AM

Since he was at a United Methodist church, we can presume that the audience consisted of members of that denomination. The United Methodist Church teaches that homosexuality is a sin and incompatible with Christianity. That church defrocks ministers who come out of the closet and permit ministers to refuse membership to openly gay individuals. They believe that sexual orientation is a choice and can therefore be changed.

One of the things that drove me away from Christianity in my teens and twenties was that I could not reconcile my beliefs about human equality, dignity and justice with the Christian and Biblical values that I had grown up with. The God of the Bible mass murders babies. I believe anybody who murders babies is a monster who should be locked up. But God is Good and human baby-murderers are evil?

edited 5th Apr '12 8:33:22 AM by Lawyerdude

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
LMage Since: May, 2011
#553: Apr 5th 2012 at 8:34:52 AM

@Lawery

In which case they are probably among those that most need to hear what the man has to say.

And I agree, re:The Bible, but you want be getting that masses to cast it down any time soon.

edited 5th Apr '12 8:35:30 AM by LMage

Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#554: Apr 5th 2012 at 8:39:19 AM

Sure they need to hear it, but they're not going to listen. People don't change their beliefs, especially their religious beliefs, after a certain point. After all, if the Bible says that gays are teh evulz, who are they to say otherwise, right?

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
LMage Since: May, 2011
#555: Apr 5th 2012 at 8:40:19 AM

@Lawyer

I disagree, I don't believe humans are ever beyond their capacity to change.

Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#556: Apr 5th 2012 at 8:45:24 AM

People can change a little bit. But I've never known a deeply religious person changing their beliefs after, say, age 40. Have you ever known or heard of somebody who, as an adult, changed their religious beliefs? I never have. You may as well try to convert the Pope to Buddhism.

edited 5th Apr '12 8:47:04 AM by Lawyerdude

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
LMage Since: May, 2011
#557: Apr 5th 2012 at 8:47:43 AM

@Lawyer

Not personally no. But I still refuse to believe that people can't change their beliefs, no matter their age, if presented with the right circumstance or argument.

Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#558: Apr 5th 2012 at 8:51:25 AM

@ L Mage: I wish I could share your optimism on that point. But it's my opinion that beliefs formed in youth are the most pervasive. This is why positive social change never comes from established institutions, but instead from people, usually younger, who challenge those institutions. Once the old farts die out, then the next generation can try to change things.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
LMage Since: May, 2011
#559: Apr 5th 2012 at 8:56:12 AM

@Lawyerdude

Just waiting for this kind of thinking to die out will take years and years, or only real chance at bringing swift and immediate change to to challenge this institutions and their flocks with logic and reason, when they fail to reply with any logical or real argument their followers will begin to question them and change may begin in their ranks.

That's why arguments like the above are so valuable, they attack the already flimsy "The Bible says so" argument and confront followers of these institutions with alternate opinions that they can't real come back at. It's not the end all be all, but it's progress, and progress is needed in this issue and soon.

Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#560: Apr 5th 2012 at 9:04:59 AM

In my experience, many people who claim their beliefs come from "the Bible" have never actually read the thing, much less actually thought about it. Remember, you're not just challenging the "Word of God" as they see it, you're also challenging centuries of ingrained tradition and practices.

I think the most optimistic thing is that many young people are leaving religion altogether and not coming back. I think more people should read the Bible. That would drive them away even faster.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#561: Apr 5th 2012 at 9:56:04 AM

@Lawyerdude: Maybe you've never met one because you seem to have given up on debating issues with a majority of people. I was raised Methodist, and I've changed my beliefs any number of times, mostly as a result of debating with Atheists. Your use of categorical language, treating all Christians as an undifferentiated whole with no significant differences of opinion within the group, thinking that official doctrine represents majority opinion or that there is no point in approaching a group of people and trying to engage them on important social issues marks you as the very type of person you are accusing them (us) as being. Even if the argument fails, if you manage to persuade a few fence-sitters, you've planted a seed that might one day change the mainstream. If you don't start somewhere, with someone, nothing ever changes. There was once a time when Catholics and Protestants felt they couldn't trust each other. There was a time when Jews couldn't get jobs, or buy a house, outside certain defined professions or neighborhoods. There was a time when people assumed that devil worshiping cults were conspiring to sexually abuse children. Beliefs change, but they wont if you don't try to engage people who disagree with you.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#562: Apr 5th 2012 at 9:58:06 AM

edit- wrong thread

edited 5th Apr '12 9:58:25 AM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#563: Apr 5th 2012 at 10:30:46 AM

I'm glad somebody finally called out the constant and incessant blanket prejudice against Christians and organized religion as a whole. On a site about people decrying blanket prejudice.

Woe is us, how long before Christianity goes away and stops causing harm?

Yeah, because Christianity has never accomplished anything good. Christians don't defend the country with our lives, we don't argue and fight against oppression, we don't lend a hand to people in need. Nope, never.

I get that people have been harmed by those claiming Christianity. Really I do; especially I was one of them. I haven't set foot in a Church in nearly two years beause I just couldn't stomach the posturing and gossiping. I haven't spoken to my own family because their use of Scripture as jackhammer doesn't jive with mine of the Scripture as olive branch. I get it.

But this continued and willful ignorance of all Christianity's virtues is disgusting strawmanning in the extreme. And what galls me and has been galling me is that the people doing it are the same ones who'd call it out in somebody else in a heartbeat.

That's why arguments like the above are so valuable, they attack the already flimsy "The Bible says so" argument and confront followers of these institutions with alternate opinions that they can't real come back at.

Kinda like the flimsy "Religion is all evil and only when it's eradicated will we have peace" argument, eh?

edited 5th Apr '12 10:33:35 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#564: Apr 5th 2012 at 10:35:05 AM

How could official doctrine not represent the majority opinion? Why would a person be a member of a religion unless they agreed with that religion's official doctrine and the pronouncements of its leaders?

And as far as engaging or trying to change a religion's position: I don't see how I, as an outsider, have any right or business getting involved in that. Would you go uninvited into somebody else's house and tell them how to arrange their furniture? You either take it or leave it. I left it.

If a person says that their beliefs come from the Bible and only from the Bible, there's really no point arguing with them at all. I don't accept the Bible as an authority, and they do. There's really no common ground there, right?

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#565: Apr 5th 2012 at 10:44:19 AM

We've already exposed the foolishness of this "Official Christianity, Inc." nonsense. We've already explained that there are a ton of individual interpretations of the Bible.

And that doesn't even address how ridiculous this "Well if they don't agree they should leave" crap is. I don't agree with everything America does, but I'm still a citizen, I still pay taxes, and I still uphold the Constitution.

Tell me, the people that remain in and support the LGBT lifestyle even though there are a ton of dicks and even criminals in that community; are they evil for remaining there?? Yes? No?

And no, you have no right to change religion, just I have no right to change the LGBT community. I have every right to voice my opinion as do you. And we both have the right to disagree or even dislike each other but still join forces in our shared goals.

I'm saddened you can't see that.

It was an honor
Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#566: Apr 5th 2012 at 10:53:03 AM

Christianity is not a national identity (yet), it's not a race, it's not a gender or sexual orientation. It's a religion. I can't change the fact that I'm a straight, white male. I can't enter or leave any of those categories. I support the Constitution and believe in the principles of equality, justice, fairness and freedom. As a citizen I have both the right and duty to see my country do the right thing.

And when people engage in acts intended to deprive their fellow human beings of equal rights and justice, and that their desire to do so is based solely on their understanding of their so-called "Holy Book" and on no other factors, then nothing that I can do as an unbeliever can change that.

The Bible supports racism, slavery, persecution of women and racial minorities, theocracy and monarchy. I do not. You don't need the Bible to support charitable giving, feeding the hungry or clothing the naked. I can come up with plenty of non-Biblical reasons to do those things.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#567: Apr 5th 2012 at 10:57:49 AM

I see you ignore my point that "Official Christianity" doesn't exist as you think it does. I see you also ignore my umpteen hundred posts that the Bible does NOT support any of those things. And you also ignore my point that if what you say is true, then you must renounce the American government since it has occasionally "officially" done things in direct contradiction to the values you (and I) uphold. No matter.

Fact is this, I was a bully and homophobe and a racist. I'd crawl on my belly to Mordor's gate if that would undo what I did.

It was Christianity, specifically my desire to serve a greater cause; a more noble cause, that caused me to renounce my ways and start moving, inch by inch, toward doing better.

I have no reason to lie to you whatsoever. Perhaps if you can one day accept that Christianity is a good thing with benefits for its practitioners and those around them, maybe we can do great things together.

edited 5th Apr '12 10:59:53 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
LMage Since: May, 2011
#568: Apr 5th 2012 at 11:01:34 AM

@Starship

I hate to say this, but the Bible DOES support those things, you simple choose to ignore the texts in question or interpret them in a alternate way, something it has been pointed out you have never done in regards to homosexuality.

Also, lets be honest, their IS a singular christian identity, it's made of widely varying factions and denominations and no one but it's members has real power of it, but it exists.

And whatever good Christianity has done, it doesn't nullify all the evil, harm, and pain it has.

edited 5th Apr '12 11:02:34 AM by LMage

Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#569: Apr 5th 2012 at 11:10:37 AM

There is a vast difference between being a citizen of a country and being a member of a religion. Citizenship requires that you either be born somewhere or you be permitted to swear an oath of citizenship to a country. There is no requirement (in the US) that citizens subscribe to any particular religious, political or other belief.

But if you choose to join a church, you are REQUIRED to believe certain things that are set out in its official doctrines. If you do not, then you have no business being a member. Period.

And the Bible does and has supported those things I said. Sure, you can "interpret" to say whatever you like. For me, if it says something I disagree with, I just chuck it out. I have no loyalty to The Bible, and therefore no reason to engage in mental gymnastics to get it to agree with what I want.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#570: Apr 5th 2012 at 11:10:42 AM

Honestly with the way the thing gets interpreted The Bible has probably supported and looked down upon pretty much everything at this point. The idea of a singular Christian mass isn't one I can believe in since really the only thing keeping Christians together is "Jesus is the savior. WHOO GOD". That's it. From there things can go pretty much any which way though they generally remain in the realm of righthand path religion. Hell if we consider Christian Atheism a type of Christianity we lose the "Jesus is the savior. WHOO GOD" bit and get left with "Jesus was a bro".

I don't really consider the pain it's caused a reasonable argument against its existence. This is however because I place absolutely no faith in humans not to treat each other like that even without religion. I don't believe people are bastards by design, but I'm not placing my bets on them not being such despite different circumstances. They'd just likely find new reasons to use to be jerks.

So instead of trying to get rid of them I will just fight for a world with nicer Christianities. Where everyone regardless of faith or lack thereof can sit under the same stupid roof and work towards the same stupid goals of happy, helpful shit.

This is getting off topic though. The topic being "What the Bible says" and not "Is Christianity a cohesive mass?" or "Is Christianity worthy of existence?"

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#571: Apr 5th 2012 at 11:11:52 AM

I hate to say this, but the Bible DOES support those things, you simple choose to ignore the texts in question or interpret them in a alternate way, something it has been pointed out you have never done in regards to homosexuality.

No it doesn't. And that has been addressed, by other people than me. The Bible does have examples where in a specific situation it was allowed, or even ordered, but enslavement was never a tenet of the faith. Nor is racism.

It's also been pointed out that you and others have ignored the literally hundreds of verses denouncing such things.

As for my unwillingness to "bend the Bible" to homosexuality. The truth is...I have tried. Really I have. It's still in progress for me, because I've recently decided to backtrack the historical contexts when those versus were written. The fact that it extends from both Testaments and in multiple places, with no passage saying "Okay guys, homosexuality is now allowed"...well.....

I'm still looking though.

Also, lets be honest, their IS a singular christian identity, it's made of widely varying factions and denominations and no one but it's members has real power of it, but it exists.

Mage, I esteem you and your points of view. Greatly But...that statement is as equally as BS as saying the LGBT community is "just this one thing". Further, I, and others, have pointed out that many claim Christianity and are about as genuine as a Reality Show.

And whatever good Christianity has done, it doesn't nullify all the evil, harm, and pain it has.

True. And likewise the evil, harm, and pain it's caused doesn't erase the countless good it's done.

So instead of trying to get rid of them I will just fight for a world with nicer Christianities. Where everyone regardless of faith or lack thereof can sit under the same stupid roof and work towards the same stupid goals of happy, helpful shit.

Starship volunteers to join Aondeug's Happy Helpful Club, Inc.

This is getting off topic though. The topic being "What the Bible says" and not "Is Christianity a cohesive mass?" or "Is Christianity worthy of existence?"

Hang on Aon. It's relevant. I find Mage and Lawyer's views on my faith....a bit frustrating, but their gripe is legit.

If we're asking what the Bible says and a sizeable group is convinced it says "Rape, kill, enslave, and destroy, but just make sure you do it while saying 'Jesus loves you'", then yes I'd have to ask, should this thing be allowed to go on?

edited 5th Apr '12 11:21:05 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
LMage Since: May, 2011
#572: Apr 5th 2012 at 11:22:49 AM

@Starship

I'm not saying that Christianity is a singular thing, I am saying that it has a national identity, whether or not anyone has control of it aside, it is perceived in a certain way on the large and opinions about Christians in general will be formed based on that identity, the result of the actions of it's prominent members. You can't really complain about people forming an opinion on you as a christian based on that understanding.

Also:

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

All these seem to be O.ks to slavery to my understanding.

edited 5th Apr '12 11:28:29 AM by LMage

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#573: Apr 5th 2012 at 11:28:31 AM

(Head to desk) I have repeated stated that certain things have been allowed. "Allow" and "condone" are two different things. The fact that Jesus's central message was "I've come to set the captives free" would seem to bear this out.

Also, no, I don't complain because I say I'm a Christian and people are shocked SHOCKED! that I shake hands with gays, that I don't have a sermon handy at a moment's notice, or that I actually enjoy a glass of beer every now and again.

I complain when people seem to willfully and intentionally ignore me and those like me, but point to somebody on TV and say "that's what you are".

It was an honor
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#574: Apr 5th 2012 at 11:29:13 AM

All right then, Starship. So long as you can keep it on the subject of the Bible verse interpretations and disputes.

I myself will step out now and just watch.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
LMage Since: May, 2011
#575: Apr 5th 2012 at 11:31:45 AM

@Starship

That's not my point, my point is that the Bible is far from infallible, and in fact is very subject to question in a great many things from a moral perspective. If you want to keep to Jesus central message and nothing else, then I don't understand what your problem in supporting Gay Rights is, if you are keeping to the letter then it has to be on all things, not just a few, ALL the rules and like of the Bible.

If your just picking and choosing what verses to follow and accept and which to not arbitrarily....Then I don't know what to say to you.

edited 5th Apr '12 11:32:21 AM by LMage


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