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Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#351: Mar 5th 2012 at 1:37:43 PM

But this is incredibly confusing to me, so I'm gonna be very clear and explicit about why that is:

1) I believe killing someone for something they haven't done, or haven't had any choice in doing is evil.

2) I believe that the only time killing someone is acceptable is if the goal truly outweighs the worth of their continued life, and that there is no other reasonable way of accomplishing the goal. -Example: Let's rewrite history and say WWII was all about freeing the Jews from concentration camps. Germany's military is going to stop us from freeing them. If I have to bomb Germany's military bases, so be it. The goal is worth it, and I probably can't accomplish the goal without doing so.

If you disagree with either of the points above, please let me know.

So then I say that God first of all killed many people who had done nothing (let's say any children caught in that whole firstborn wave). This is evil, because those children hadn't done anything (or, if they had, they had no choice). Please explain how this does not make sense.

Now, maybe in light of the second rule, you might say, "Well, the goal was to get the Jews out of Egypt where they were enslaved and persecuted." This is a laudable goal. In fact, it mirrors the one in the example above. We would probably not restrict ourselves to destroying military bases, but would likely destroy factories too if it meant getting the Jews out of those concentration camps. Somewhere, someone would be killed who had no say in what was happening. So maybe God has a justification.

Except in our example, it would only be okay to bomb, say, a factory with civilian workers, if there was no reasonable alternative. But if God is truly Almighty, then there's no reason he couldn't just remove the Jews from Egypt himself. Hey, look, a whole bunch of innocent people don't have to be murdered in this scenario.

Now, none of this has anything to do with whether the Pharaoh's heart was hardened, because even if the Pharaoh was just a nutjob who defied God even though he saw all the plagues (as opposed to not being allowed to change his mind...that's free will?), that has no bearing on the helplessness of all the other Egyptians.

EDIT: [up]Why doesn't that work in reverse, though? Why wouldn't you look at the obviously evil things in the Bible and then say, "Well this can't be true so the other things aren't"?

Not that I say you should, I just don't see why you go with the one viewpoint instead of the other.

edited 5th Mar '12 1:43:26 PM by Vericrat

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#352: Mar 5th 2012 at 1:53:12 PM

@Aondeug, re God hardening Pharaoh's heart: Most Bible commentaries I've read explain that "God hardened his heart" isn't meant to say that God, the person, made a conscious decision to cause Pharaoh to act the way he did. Rather, it was the way the author used to say "Pharaoh's heart was hardened [for whatever reason]".

Depending on how you see it, that could make the passage less disturbing, since it doesn't have God deliberately playing the two sides of the conflict. Or you could argue that the problem remains, since God is omnipotent and thus everything happening is his doing. (But then, I'd argue that God isn't presented as omnipotent in the book of Exodus: if he were, why couldn't he just teleport all the Hebrews out of Egypt instead of having Moses try to impress the Pharaoh with miracles?)

I'm not a theologian at all, just going by whatever I've happened to read about this passage.

edited 5th Mar '12 1:54:12 PM by DoktorvonEurotrash

Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#353: Mar 5th 2012 at 1:58:05 PM

@Vericrat: The only explanation that I've heard for that is the idea that everything that God does is just and righteous because God does it. Or, to put it another way, "When God does it, that means that it is not unjust."

Personally I can't buy that, since if somebody says we should be just and loving, but if a human actually acted the way God does in the Bible, then such a person would be a murderous tyrant. "Do as I say, not as I do." And in any case, even if such a being existed, I would never worship it out of anything other than abject fear.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#354: Mar 5th 2012 at 3:57:39 PM

@Maxima:

About hardening his heart, the Bible makes it clear that once you have clearly decided to ignore God, i.e. turning yourself over to demonic possession, then yes, God's backs off and deliberately makes it so you cannot reverse your stance.

Uh, wut? There's no indication that Pharoah was possessed by a demon; there's actually no mention of demons or demonic possession in the OT at all. God just wanted to get through all the plagues so he could have a nice theatrical ending instead of, y'know, preserving lives.

A combination of reasons. But really, the biggest reason is that the parts of the Bible that are clear instructions to me....work.

How's "8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. " working out for you?

And I just chose the silly rule that's in the TEN COMMANDMENTS. According to Jewish tradition there are 613 of these things, and I guarantee you you don't follow all of them. Even the ones, like Kashrut, which you are supposed to follow in your day-to-day life.

@DVET: Nope, can't be that, because previous verses do say "Pharoah hardened his own heart". Instead about halfway through the plagues it switches to "God hardened Pharoah's heart".

Not to mention that God-the-being specifically says "I will harden Pharoah's heart" to Moses before any of the plagues.

feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#355: Mar 5th 2012 at 4:12:37 PM

I'm not a Christian, since I believe a lot of the things in the Bible don't work. (For instance, Maxima has repeatedly acknowledged the difficulties involved in accepting some of the stuff John said about sex.) However, enough stuff in the Bible does work that I can see where Maxima's coming from. I don't accept the Bible wholly, but I can read it critically and pick out the good points, just as I pick out the good points from other works of the literary canon that are products of their times. (I think the problem comes when people don't read critically, and just take things as they're given.)

edited 5th Mar '12 4:13:46 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#356: Mar 5th 2012 at 4:21:58 PM

Problem with that is that they're meant to paint an interconnected picture, so the "good points" substantially lose their impact if you don't make the connections between the books.

Now using Trivialis handle.
feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#357: Mar 5th 2012 at 4:28:44 PM

Let's drop the issue of holiness for a moment, and draw an analogy with a work that's simply well-written. Ode To Kirihito is the best exploration of alienation and dehumanization I've ever read. It's also horribly, horribly sexist. In order to properly understand the story, you need to understand and acknowledge its sexism, but that doesn't mean you need to go along with it in order to still get the impact of the rest of its message.

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#358: Mar 5th 2012 at 4:32:04 PM

I get that, but in this case, the message doesn't seem to be what you consider part of the "good points".

Now using Trivialis handle.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#359: Mar 5th 2012 at 6:06:12 PM

And I just chose the silly rule that's in the TEN COMMANDMENTS. According to Jewish tradition there are 613 of these things, and I guarantee you you don't follow all of them. Even the ones, like Kashrut, which you are supposed to follow in your day-to-day life.

I'm not sure about the 613 rules. The original tablet 10 are the overarching rules to follow. With that said, you are correct. Black Humor, you wouldn't believe the ways I've failed, the people I've hurt, the dirt in my closet.

In my own estimation, I uphold about.... 3% of the Bible. That's with tremendous effort. I'm saying to you that that little 3% makes me happy. It's given me hope when life was so bad I literally would've killed myself if I was a braver man. It's helped me survive when my own blood family did things to ruin me. It's kept me from destroying myself when my arrogance and foolishness would've landed me in an early grave (best case scenario). The Scripture actually helped me to be okay with the image in the mirror, something I thought other people experienced, but never thought I'd experience myself.

The Scripture saved my life in every definition of the word. So yes, I've come to see it as a guide, as a foundation for living my life. And the more I practice, the better I get I living it, and the better my life has become.

It was an honor
Treblain Not An Avatar Since: Nov, 2012
Not An Avatar
#360: Mar 5th 2012 at 10:46:24 PM

And I just chose the silly rule that's in the TEN COMMANDMENTS. According to Jewish tradition there are 613 of these things, and I guarantee you you don't follow all of them. Even the ones, like Kashrut, which you are supposed to follow in your day-to-day life.

It's physically impossible to follow all 613 commandments. They're not a checklist. If you were to try to fulfill them all, you need to be a man, a woman, a priest, a layman, in the Land of Israel, outside the Land, ritually pure and impure, et cetera. Some are rigid rules for how to do things, and some are things like "love your neighbor" and "honor your parents". Some are lifelong commitments and others you only need to do once in your lifetime. Many (including some of the wacky ones people love to harp on) cannot be fulfilled in the absence of a Temple in Jerusalem or a religious government, and are therefore not applicable in modern times. At any rate, you don't burn in hell for all eternity for screwing them up.

We're not just men of science, we're men of TROPE!
neobullseye R.I.P. Stuntel: 1-9-2012 from Here, of course. Since: Jun, 2011
R.I.P. Stuntel: 1-9-2012
#361: Mar 6th 2012 at 2:16:21 AM

First, let me get a few things straight.

1: God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.
2: Sinde God is Omniscient, He knows the result of whatever He'll do before He does it. This should result in making the best decision every time.
3: Since God is omnipotent, there is no limits in what he can do. (Ignoring the "can God make a rock that's too heavy for Him to lift" paradox thing for the sake of discussion). Combined with point 2, this should result in God's work having absolutely perfect results.
4: Since God is omnibenevolent, He wants the best for everyone. Combined with point 2 and 3, He knows exactly how to make sure this happens, and has the power to do so.
Correct me if I'm wrong at any or all of these points/assumptions.

The problem with this is that, even in the Bible itself, there is still suffering. (Note that I specifically call it suffering here to rule out human free will as an option) You could take Job's friends' stance and say that everyone who suffers must have done something to earn it, or otherwise has to learn from said suffering. But I really can't buy that for a few simple reasons:
1: Birth defects - There are children being born with horrible handicaps like incomplete hearts, spina bifida, half their body missing and more of that stuff. "How is this God's fault", you may ask? Well, since according to the Bible (Psalm 129:13, possibly amongst others) , God has woven you inside your mother's womb. And since God is Omnipotent, everything He does goes exactly as he wants it to.
Who actually learns something from this? What did the child do to earn such a fate? And since according to the Bible the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus Christ, what happens to the child's soul after his inevitable death? He hasn't had a chance to convert yet, so does that mean he goes to hell? Condemning one person (who did absolutely nothing AFAIK) to eternal suffering just to make a point to another doesn's seem all that benevolent to me.
2: Judgment without explanation - Even if you take all suffering in the world as judgement from God, then that still doesn't explain why He never says why He's doing what He's doing. And though I know that the Abrahamic God doesn't need to explain Himself to anyone, think of the following example: You come home from your work, then notice that your kid is doing/has done something bad. Said child, however, doesn't even know that he's doing something wrong. As such, simply sending the child to his room leads to a very confused child who will simply do said bad thing again as soon as you look away. However, if you EXPLAIN to the child that what he/she was doing was wrong, then he/she'll will understand, learns from it and hopefully won't do it again.
3: Lack of evangelism in the early times - God wants to save everyone, right? At least in the Bible it says something like God not having lust in a sinner's death (I forgot the exact line, but it was something like that, right?) . But if this is the case, then why did God wait for 4000-6.500.000 years until he finally give mankind a way into heaven, resulting in millions to billions of people going to hell simply because there was no way to heaven? Free will will always fail if you aren't given the option to choose the right choices. (Think of a multiple choice question where all the given answers are wrong; You'll be wrong by default because the designer of the test literally didn't give you a way to beat it.)

EDIT: Okay, finally done.

edited 8th Mar '12 1:17:11 PM by neobullseye

Stuff happens. Post it here so we can laugh at you >=D
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#362: Mar 6th 2012 at 2:17:33 PM

@Treblain: I realize that. There are enough silly ones in the ones you're STILL supposed to follow daily to go around.

EDIT @neobull: Even the book of Job doesn't agree with Job's friends' stance. The answer it gives is, basically, "God works in mysterious ways".

edited 6th Mar '12 2:19:01 PM by BlackHumor

neobullseye R.I.P. Stuntel: 1-9-2012 from Here, of course. Since: Jun, 2011
R.I.P. Stuntel: 1-9-2012
#363: Mar 8th 2012 at 5:29:16 AM

Bumpity. Can anyone answer the questions in my previous post?

Stuff happens. Post it here so we can laugh at you >=D
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#364: Mar 9th 2012 at 10:48:29 AM

As a person with a degree in this stuff, I want you guys to know the very questions you guys are raising have been raised for years.

This means that people have been arguing this for thousands of years, and will continue to until the end of time. (no pun intended.)

The problem is if you take the Abrahamic scripture literally, then you will only be contridicting yourself left and right, regardless of which book because all three are a little wonky.

What scares me is that religion is the one thing that can turn a normal, sane person into a complete opposite and feel like they are being completely justified because their book gives them the all okay to do so.

And when you have a document that says even the big god is fickle and doesn't have to follow his own rules, it's a scary allowence.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#365: Mar 9th 2012 at 11:19:14 AM

Religion is far from the only thing that does that. Nationalism, to take just one example, is every bit as bad.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#366: Mar 10th 2012 at 5:59:27 AM

To a point. Most American politicians are proud to use the bible instead of the Constitution to make their policy decisions and are quite proud to do so because they feel their duty as a Christian is more important than their duties as a Congressman.

Religion is also the one thing that can make people override their nationaity, such as the extremist Muslim Americans who fund or join terrorist groups in Somolia or Taliban strongholds in Central Asia.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#367: Mar 10th 2012 at 11:09:15 AM

Religion is also the one thing that can make people override their nationaity

Yes, nobody ever does it for money or political reasons.

Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#368: Mar 10th 2012 at 11:27:32 AM

The rulers have always used religion for political and personal gain. It's the common people who serve their ambition and have to pay the price in blood and freedom.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#369: Mar 10th 2012 at 11:50:08 AM

Bit of an overstatement, if you ask me, but point taken.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#370: Mar 10th 2012 at 12:24:54 PM

Except it's also one of the first things hyper-nationalist nightmares crack down on. Like, every single time (see basically every Communist nation ever). Because when they don't control it, it's a grassroots opposition to them exploiting whoever they feel like and a pretty powerful thorn in their side.

edited 10th Mar '12 12:25:49 PM by Pykrete

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#371: Mar 10th 2012 at 1:31:16 PM

Not "religion in general". Get back to the topic.

edited 10th Mar '12 1:31:29 PM by Madrugada

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#372: Mar 10th 2012 at 2:45:32 PM

What scares me is that religion is the one thing that can turn a normal, sane person into a complete opposite and feel like they are being completely justified because their book gives them the all okay to do so.

Christianity has also transformed selfsish, egotistical, and insane people into people who spend their rest of lives upholding the dignity of their fellow human beings.

It was an honor
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#373: Mar 11th 2012 at 4:59:30 PM

So how do we determine who's reading the book right? Those who are kind or those who are ugly?

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#374: Mar 11th 2012 at 5:00:20 PM

What does the bible say? Stuff.

thread/

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#375: Mar 11th 2012 at 6:14:29 PM

@Gabrael: If we're atheists, we determine who's reading the book right by who we want to be reading it right. I'm inclined to believe that the "ugly" interpretation is textually correct in some cases, but I care about positive results, not textual correctness. (Better that someone do the right thing for the wrong reasons than do the wrong thing, after all.)

edited 11th Mar '12 6:15:24 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

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