"God made it clear (with the Nile turning red) that Egypt should let Israelites go or face consequences."
Though I would like to beleve that, there is one major problem I have with that theory. Namely, according to that story God himself hardened Pharaoh's heart, effectively forcing said consequences upon the Egyptians. Besides, since the Abrahamic God is omnipotent, couldn't he simply teleport the Jews out of Egypt and call it a day? (Note that I have read another translation than most of you guys (A Dutch one), so there might be some translation problems there.)
Stuff happens. Post it here so we can laugh at you >=DExodus does say that God hardened the pharaoh's heart but I do not think it was to an overriding point, nor do I think God did so arbitrarily without looking at the pharaoh's heart first, for that goes against the fact that the pharaoh too is a human, made in God's image and instilled with free will.
About "teleporting" - yes, I suppose.
There's probably a deeper reason to show the Israelites God's power to deliver out of Egypt, though I don't know the specifics myself. That's worth a thought.
Nobody's glossing over anything. It's just the case that when those who do literally believe the Bible, like myself, explain the seeming contradictions, our explanations are ignored, not understood, or dismissed.
First off, the option to mark your doorway with the blood of a lamb and thus forego the unpleasant death of your firstborn was open to the Egyptians as well as the Isrealites.
Second, with your own example, yes, if you have children they should be disciplined. Murdering and killing them isn't acceptable, however, if your child, God forbid, decided to become a drug dealer and then got themselves blown away, well.....
It was an honorMaxima: Though I will agree with your first suggestion by virtue of not knowing quite enough to disagree with it (Also, sidenote: Did the Egyptians actually KNEW that they should mark their doors to save their firstborns?), I can't say the same about your second suggestion. Indeed, children (and adults, for that matter) need to be punished when they do something wrong, but in a way that they can actually learn that what they did was wrong. Smply hitting them won't solve anything, nor will punishing the child for what the parent did.
EDIT: removed nonsense
As a PS of sorts: Feel free to correct me if I misunderstood you at any point.
edited 5th Mar '12 7:19:32 AM by neobullseye
Stuff happens. Post it here so we can laugh at you >=DWell, Neo, I thought your points were pretty valid. It seemed to me that the Egyptians were aware of all the exchanges between Moses and Pharoah, but of course none of this is explicitly stated.
Like I said, it seems to me that usually when God decides to go the Crush Kill Destroy route, it's usually after multiple warnings.
Another thing I'm noticing here is the assertion that a just God wouldn't harm. In my opinion, there's no way a just God could only be love and hugs all the time. Just as parents ground their kids and just as police and judges have to punish criminals.
On the topic of children being punished for what their parents do, as I've said before, there are parts of the Bible that are beyond my competence and expertise.
A personal theory of mine, in no way related to any "official" teaching. Is that..yes, God set up the world so that the actions of individuals affect other individuals who may or may not have anything to do with the other person's decision. Just like being mortal and not being able to control the weather, we are at the mercy of the actions of others. Maybe God designed it that way to keep a narcisstic humanity from simply running roughshod over one another.
edited 5th Mar '12 7:43:12 AM by TheStarshipMaxima
It was an honorBut there's two different things here. In one instance, one person's bad deeds can have a direct negative impact on another person. If I beat somebody up and steal their wallet, then I am responsible. Likewise, if a parent is irresponsible or abusive, then their children will suffer for it. That's understandable. And we have laws that punish those who commit crimes like that
But in the Old Testament, we have a supposedly benevolent, all-powerful God punishing innocent people for the "crimes" of others. It is God who is personally and directly responsible for thousands of acts of infanticide. Notice that God never actually harms Pharaoah. Likewise, are we to believe there were no babies or pregnant women around when God supposedly flooded the Earth?
Or in 1 Chronicles 21 and 2 Samuel 24, where King David takes a census of Israel. God gets so angry at this that he gives David a Sadistic Choice: seven years of famine, three months of fleeing before their enemies, or three days of plague. David chose plague, and God killed 70,000 of his "Chosen People", but spared David.
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
Lawyerdude, like I responded to Vericrat, there are aspects of our beliefs that are simply beyond my explaining to anybody else. I wish I understood it better myself.
Hell, as a black Christian I often wondered what kind of just God would've allowed 200 plus years of slavery.
I can only give you personal theories and ideas. I have no proof as to the mind of God.
It was an honor
So if, as you say, you believe the Bible is literally true, then you believe, right down to the very core of your being, that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old, that all life forms were created exactly as they are in the space of 6 days, that humans and angels interbred and gave birth to a race of giants, and that the Earth itself is flat with four corners.
edited 5th Mar '12 8:20:33 AM by Lawyerdude
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.Well, I realize that a just God needs to punish His/Her (I'm taking "God" in a more general term here, not just the Abrahamic one.) creatures at times. That's exactly what "just" implies; judging, dividing right from wrong etc.. However, problems arise when you combine this trait with omnipotence and omnibenevolence: You now have a God who wants the best for His creation, has literally unlimited power, yet still brutally murders any and all who dare to not honor Him.
Stuff happens. Post it here so we can laugh at you >=DI'm not sure if you're trying to be funny about the Earth being flat with four corners, but...
Yes. To everything you listed. Though the Earth is round and I don't think the Bible said otherwise.
It was an honorMatthew 4:8 - "Again, the devil took him (Jesus) to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor."
So clearly there exists a "very high mountain" somewhere on Earth where a person can stand and see "all the kingdoms of the world". That is not possible on a globe. Therefore, the Earth must be flat, and there must be a mountain somewhere that a person can see the entire flat Earth.
Revelation 7:1 - "After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree."
So there must be four corners of this flat Earth, and the winds come from outside the four corners.
So yes, if you take the Bible literally, then the Earth is flat with four corners.
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.This has the excellent effect of still ignoring that it was the children who had no control over whether lamb's blood was on their doors that were killed. See, when I walk up to someone who has wronged me, and tell them how to fix it, and when they don't, murder their child, most people might call me a sadistic bastard. Few would say I am love.
Which brings me back to my point. Maybe "gloss over" was the wrong phrase. I apologize. What I mean is that most people who believe in the Bible do not believe infanticide is acceptable. Yet they have a very clear story of God committing it. They still label God as a force of good and love.
good and love =/= infanticide
Ok, I don't think that was particularly controversial. So people generally have to ignore one or the other. I think most people pick infanticide. So ignoring that to make the whole God is good/God is love thing make sense is what I referred to as "glossing over." I am willing to use a less negative term if it's offered.
My point is, whatever that process is where you ignore a part of the Bible to make sense of the God is good/God is love thing, can't you use it to ignore other unpleasant stuff in the Bible?
Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.I'm curious. Can someone explain the historical context of the whole baby killing thing? Someone mentioned that a family unit was something that meant more before, but I'd like this whole thing fleshed out in the context of the time period in which the text was written. I'm getting vibes that it's likely value dissonance caused by the fact that values change over time, but I'd just like the issue explored I suppose.
Just saying "The values were different" is a bit...eh. I want to see what they were. Or at least what we know of them.
If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan ChahI feel the need to point out to Vericrat that "firstborn son" is not the same thing as "child". By some Rabbis' accounts, Pharoah himself was a firstborn son who God deliberately skipped over.
That said, no, the Egyptians did not have the opportunity to put blood over their doors. God never told them about that. Not to mention that God is mentioned explicitely to have deliberately "hardened Pharoah's heart" several times during several of the plagues, explicitely taking away the ability to avoid further punishment.
Also I'd like the know about the translations and contextual meaning of "hardened the Pharoh's heart" from a historical standpoint. I remember seeing it brought up before, but I can't remember much of it...
If I cannot find it here...TO THE INTERNET...ANOTHER PART OF IT.
If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan ChahI'll agree firstborn doesn't have to mean "child", but surely some of those firstborn sons being killed were children.
EDIT:
Given the context, to me it seems as if God is hardening Pharaoh's heart so Pharaoh will continue to refuse to release the Israelites so that God can go on his killing spree such that his "wonders may be multiplied in Egypt." What I think that means is that everyone in Egypt would see his power and know that he (not the Egyptian gods) was the real deity.
I'm not an expert though...
edited 5th Mar '12 11:16:04 AM by Vericrat
Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.Thank you Black Humor. Now can my issue with the first born killing thing be answered on a historical basis as well? If you can that is. I'm interested in the historical base of the Bible. When it was written, what the people then thought, why...
Not how we're interpreting it now with our values, but how it was interpreted then when it was written.
edited 5th Mar '12 12:04:40 PM by Aondeug
If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
Much of the text of the Old Testament was written from oral traditions and stories that were compiled around 450 BCE, although some argue for a later date for the completion of the canon. A lot of it covers history up to the Babylonian Captivity, which occurred in the 500s BCE.
Basically, writing down their history, laws and stories was a way for the Israelite people to maintain their religious and cultural identity in the face of continued invasions and foreign oppression.
Consequently, the God of the Old Testament is portrayed as alternately helping the Israelites overcome their enemies and punishing them for various transgressions. Where God helps them, it's a Badass Boast. Where he turns against them, it's You Have Failed Me.
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.As far as I know, God didn't tell the Egyptians, it was Moses who who kept approaching the Pharoah and asking him to let the Jews go. He refused and in fact taunted God, going so far as to ask "Who is this "God" that I have to listen?" Well, God showed him.
About hardening his heart, the Bible makes it clear that once you have clearly decided to ignore God, i.e. turning yourself over to demonic possession, then yes, God's backs off and deliberately makes it so you cannot reverse your stance.
The flood is another instance people like to use that proves that God is really petty and evil, but in fact he had his prophets warn the people repeatedly that he was going to flood the Earth and Kill Em All. And yes, after repeat warnings, God specifically sealed the Ark so nobody could change their mind and Noah himself couldn't let them in.
Again, I don't know the mind of a God who could create the Universe and all the people in it. But it does seem to me that God usually forewarns people before going on an all out spree against them.
It was an honorA combination of reasons. But really, the biggest reason is that the parts of the Bible that are clear instructions to me....work.
Not coveting what belongs to someone else...works. Mercy for your enemies....works. Acknowledging that my base nature is evil and that it takes a holy God to do better....works.
The parts that tend to start this debates, why did God kill Egyptian children, did he really mean to "stone" the gays, etc. Well, these don't really affect me in the day to day.
The parts of the Bible that DO affect me in the day to day seem to hold up without fail.
So I guess it's a case of trust based on "Well, all this seems to be true and not just bullshit, so it would stand to reason the whole thing is as well."
It was an honor

@abstract: I think I misunderstood your point about a clear message from God with regard to the Nile turning red. To me, it seems like you were saying that, "These people could have reacted to the Nile turning red and released the Jews, and God was punishing them for not doing so."
It seems like it's supposed to be a justification for why "God is love" while God also murders children, it says to me, "Well, those kids who saw the Nile turning red really should have done something about the whole Jews being in Egypt thing."
It weirds me out that people will claim that the Bible says, "God is love" but then just kind of gloss over the whole rampant murder thing. And if you can gloss over the rampant murder bits, why not gloss over other inappropriate bits, like homophobia?
Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.