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TobiasDrake Exposition Dragon from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Jan 15th 2020 at 7:24:46 AM

And then you have the Z moves where Pokemon run without moving their limbs.

Oh my god, Z-Moves were such a mistake. [lol]

I really liked Mega Evolution as a gimmick and was eagerly looking forward to seeing what new Megas the next game would deliver. And instead, Game Freak was all, "Mega Evolution is So Last Season. Now we're all about these bland super-attacks that are like regular attacks but can only be done once, with five straight minutes of poorly-animated spectacle leading into them!"

Dynamax/Gigantamax as a concept is still inferior to Mega Evolution in my book, but I'll take it over Z-Moves any day.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 15th 2020 at 8:25:07 AM

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold unfeeling logic that which can be equally explained by emotional outburst.
M84 Light our darkest hour! from Our little blue planet Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Light our darkest hour!
Jan 15th 2020 at 7:24:54 AM

[up][up][up][up][up]I dunno. Typhlosion wasn't as cool as Feraligator IMHO.

[up]Yeah, Z-moves were kind of...meh.

Edited by M84 on Jan 15th 2020 at 11:25:30 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Jan 15th 2020 at 7:27:15 AM

In a nutshell, the Pokemon franchise is a colossal monument to laziness.

TV Tropes Changelog -- keep track of updates to the site!
slimcoder Black-Hearted Evil or Brave-Hearted Hero
Black-Hearted Evil or Brave-Hearted Hero
Jan 15th 2020 at 7:27:16 AM

[up][up] I really like those 2.

Though I don't like their grass contemporary because she broke Grovyle's heart for that lame banana shithead that one episode.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 15th 2020 at 7:27:36 AM

Can you see all of me? Walk into my mystery. Do you remember me? Capture you or set you free I am all. I am all... I am all of me
Jan 15th 2020 at 7:29:57 AM

I'm reminded of the New Frame Plus episode on Pokemon where the host (who has experience as an animator) explains why he thinks the animation for the Pokemon tend to be limited: the sheer number of Pokemon present means that the number of animations you have to do is daunting.

He mentions that if a Pokemon only needs 8 different animations, that still results in having to do around 5,760 animations (the video was made before the full roster of Sword and Shield was released); he also mentions that he doubts every Pokemon only has about 8 animations.

I really do not envy the animators of these games.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Jan 15th 2020 at 7:30:37 AM

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Jan 15th 2020 at 7:34:06 AM

Boo hoo. It's not like it's the only video game with lots of animations.

Also, there are many time-saving techniques available. In most games, they build a set of skeletons that can be used as frames for animations. Each characters is assigned to one of these skeletons. You can then build a much smaller set of generic animations and adjust them for each model.

For example, Squirtle uses Frame G and Animations 1-5, 7, and 15-18.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 15th 2020 at 10:36:46 AM

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Draghinazzo My love, has dressed me like a clown Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
My love, has dressed me like a clown
Jan 15th 2020 at 7:34:50 AM

I think it's telling that both z-moves and dynamax/gigantamax havent achieved the level of popularity that mega evolution had. Most people seem to be indifferent to or openly dislike z-moves, while the gigantamax forms have people a bit more excited but the mechanic itself is seen as inferior.

In regards to the animations' low quality, the main issue is time. Game Freak is on a yearly schedule so the games are always rushed and cut corners to meet deadlines. If they had like 3-5 years to make the games then maybe they could focus on gradually improving the models and animations for whatever mon roster they choose.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Jan 15th 2020 at 11:36:51 AM

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine. ...not really though.
TobiasDrake Exposition Dragon from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Jan 15th 2020 at 7:45:09 AM

What made Mega Evolution so effective was that it added complexity. Only one Pokemon in your team can Mega Evolve, but the Mega Evolution changes the Pokemon's stats, typing, and ability in ways that contributed to new strategies and gameplay ideas.

Z-Moves were just a big boomy attack for one of your Pokemon to do one time. They added nothing.

Dynamax/Gigantimax has the aesthetic of Mega Evolution. That whole "Pokemon turns into more powerful version of that Pokemon" thing is still present. But it still feels less mechanically interesting than "One of my Pokemon will transform into a different Pokemon. Guess which one!"

And even on the aesthetic level, it, uh... it's kinda hard to take Pokemon kaiju battles seriously.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 15th 2020 at 8:48:53 AM

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold unfeeling logic that which can be equally explained by emotional outburst.
Draghinazzo My love, has dressed me like a clown Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
My love, has dressed me like a clown
Jan 15th 2020 at 7:50:00 AM

Z moves do add complexity and strategy because those moves are very powerful and allow certain mons to get past traditional answers to them. You have to try and figure out which Mon is most likely to have a z move based on metagame trends and the overall team composition of your opponent.

But as far as them being as interesting as megas I agree that they are very inferior.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine. ...not really though.
TheLovecraftian from Software Relationship Status: Seeking boyfriend-free girl
Jan 15th 2020 at 7:53:18 AM

I must be the only person that liked Z-Moves better than Megas.

And I still defend that both mechanics could have been great if only Gamefreak would take the time to polish them instead of jumping from gimmick to gimmick.

Propta Fornicatio et Nudatio Circumspectans, Unitati
Jan 15th 2020 at 7:56:48 AM

"One of my Pokemon will transform into a different Pokemon. Guess which one!"

...Most people only ran one mon that was even capable of mega-evolution, though? And even if there were two it was generally still pretty easy to guess. If that's the level of strategy you're concerned with, z-moves and dynamax added a lot more

Yumil Mad Archivist
Mad Archivist
Jan 15th 2020 at 8:02:08 AM

yeah, that sounds like you're describing what mega evo could have been if it had been a mainstay gimmick developped over several games to give it enough mons who can mega-evo, but since instead they jumped ship to something different, mega-evo is just as if not more predictible than Z-moves competitively.

Z-moves are also more than just flashy strong attacks since non-offensive z-moves are a thing. Some madman blasting out something like Z-Heal-block is an immensely bigger surprise than getting your pick wrong for who of the mega-able pokemon is going to mega evo.

there's little to guess with mega-evo, because your opponent is running one pokemon able to mega evo, two tops. Z-moves being something every pokemon can run and can fullfill different purposes that hit really hard make it a more versatile tool overall.

Edited by Yumil on Jan 15th 2020 at 5:26:54 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
Jan 15th 2020 at 8:04:47 AM

I'm speaking as someone who is not interested in competitive battling, but I will say that I really liked Z-moves mostly for the character animations (Catastropika is a personal favorite) and    LIGHT THAT BURNS THE SKY   .

RhymeBeat Bird mom from Eastern Standard Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Bird mom
Jan 15th 2020 at 11:16:16 AM

Z-Belly Drum was a really good thing to fall back on for Belly Pokes.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
darkabomination the Quantum Mechanic from cyberspace Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
the Quantum Mechanic
Jan 15th 2020 at 11:30:19 AM

Pokemon has the problem people complain about Sonic games, but far worse. The cycle of making a game with a new gimmick, not getting the most time or game space to flesh it out, and almost immediately dumping it for a new idea the next game.

Even when Pokemon does celebrate its new idea, they underuse them almost constantly. How many mega evolves did we actually get by Sun and Moon's post game?

When it comes to the workload, I'd not say Pokemon is lazy so much as mismanaged. With the Black and White games, all those years of sprites stockpiled and reanimated from previous games gave a huge collection of mon and animations to use. If they still stuck to sprites, or decided to make a standardized method of updating Pokemon models and animation with longer gaps of time between games, they'd have no reason to be cutting corners as much as they're doing.

"No will to break."
RhymeBeat Bird mom from Eastern Standard Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Bird mom
Jan 15th 2020 at 11:56:41 AM

I believe that sprites are actually harder to make a large amount of animations for.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
Steven The Nu Mou Enthusiast from The Room Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
The Nu Mou Enthusiast
Jan 15th 2020 at 12:29:59 PM

On the subject of animations, Pokemon fainting barely have animations now. As soon as they start to falter, they're immediately returned to their ball. Freaking Pokemon Stadium had full animations for fainted Pokemon before they are sent back.

Something something thoughts and prayers
Jan 15th 2020 at 12:39:48 PM

[up]My not-so-serious headcanon is that trainers quickly call back fainted Pokemon so said Pokemon don't end up taking a dirt nap.

Speaking of Stadium, the one fainting animation that still sticks with me is Jynx's. Seeing every part of her except her hair disappear was definitely something.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Jan 15th 2020 at 12:40:36 PM

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Jan 15th 2020 at 1:55:04 PM

That reminds me of some Fridge Logic about how a Pokemon that looks like an earthworm can get hit with a blast of atomic fire from a Mega EX dragon and "faint". Sure, why not?

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ShinyCottonCandy Resident CTR:NF Master from Wumpa Island Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Resident CTR:NF Master
Jan 15th 2020 at 2:07:04 PM

[up]When itís a trained Pokťmon, I just ignore it, (logically, it could be justified as the attacker holding back, but really itís just Gameplay and Story Segregation) but if the recipient of the attack is wild, Iíve always pretended the narrator is pretending itís not really dead for the sake of the kids in the audience.

Incidentally, Iíve always been quite amused by the theoretical max damage from a single hit being in the billions when no Pokťmon can even have more than 1,000 HP max. I say theoretically because although the damage formula can output that number, naturally overflows would occur, and it requires situations that canít be encountered without using the PVP to control both sides of the battle anyway.

I need to think of a better signature.
Steven The Nu Mou Enthusiast from The Room Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
The Nu Mou Enthusiast
Jan 15th 2020 at 2:10:57 PM

[up][up]

Hence the page image for Non-Lethal K.O. tongue

Something something thoughts and prayers
TobiasDrake Exposition Dragon from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Jan 15th 2020 at 2:50:41 PM

What gets me about the fainting is the verbage. Fainting is a passive loss of consciousness brought about by a lack of oxygen in the brain.

When you hit someone with a rock so hard they cease to be conscious, that's not fainting. That's knocking them the f*ck out. A lot of other games refrain from using the word "died" in favor of "knocked out" or "K.O.ed". But either the developers in Japanese or the localizers in English chose "fainted" when they created Pokemon and that bizarre linguistic choice has been grandfathered into the series ever since.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 15th 2020 at 3:51:00 AM

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold unfeeling logic that which can be equally explained by emotional outburst.
MightyKombat And? And? And? And? AND? from Are explosions science?
And? And? And? And? AND?
Jan 15th 2020 at 3:15:29 PM

Yeah, "KO'ed" would probably be the better term but its hard to change iconic wordage. I mean nobody ever shuts the fuck up about what a man is or how sick this guy are or what they're fighting for.

I'm quite confident in my shitposting you know
Steven The Nu Mou Enthusiast from The Room Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
The Nu Mou Enthusiast
Jan 15th 2020 at 4:01:23 PM

I heard that the lead behind Pokemon chose to use fainting instead of death because he didn't want younger players to say things like "I/My Pokemon died" when they lose since he feels death as a concept should be respected more.

Something something thoughts and prayers
M84 Light our darkest hour! from Our little blue planet Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Light our darkest hour!
Jan 15th 2020 at 6:16:55 PM

I'm pretty sure there are rom-hacks of Pokemon games that actually have Pokemon die for keeps if their HP goes to 0.

Disgusted, but not surprised

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