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Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#351: Mar 29th 2020 at 8:46:19 PM

Uhh... I wasn't talking about the Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, just the Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann. I know about the Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, but it's not really relevant to what I was talking about.

Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#352: Mar 29th 2020 at 8:48:52 PM

Its physically made of the same components.

Edited by Zeromaeus on Mar 29th 2020 at 11:49:02 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#353: Mar 29th 2020 at 8:51:59 PM

No, the Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann is made of metal. It's a real, physical object that can exist without Spiral Power, and it did for many years in the form of the moon. The Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann and Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann are made of pure Spiral Power in the shape of a gigantic mecha.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#354: Apr 12th 2020 at 5:13:18 PM

The ending.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
jmf6401 Since: Sep, 2013
#355: Apr 22nd 2020 at 7:20:24 PM

Gurren Lagann's ending was nothing more than a giant middle finger right in the face of the audience. A bittersweet ending is supposed to serve a purpose. Either it accomplishes something or it brings resolution to the plot. (Avengers:Endgame being a perfect example.) Nia's death did neither. But equally infuriating is that they expect us to believe that Simon would actually be okay with it after everything he went through, which I'd like to point out goes far and beyond something as simple as a spouse dying. Human emotion does not work like that. I can honestly say that if it were me, I would either spend the rest of my life drinking myself into a stupor or go Thanos on the world. In the end, all Gurren Lagann achieved was prove that the Joker was right.

Cross (Don’t ask)
#356: Apr 22nd 2020 at 7:32:50 PM

WOG is that they had time (a week I think) before the wedding, and Nia held out as long as she could. From what I remember Simon wasn't surprised, so he already came to terms with it.

jmf6401 Since: Sep, 2013
#357: Apr 22nd 2020 at 9:15:27 PM

That's not good enough. Especially considering the entire theme of the series is never give up, s—- destiny, and kick impossible to the curb. Let me give you an example. I'm helping a friend with a Gurren Lagann project. It's in the planning stages but here's the scenario. What if there were two Simons, the cannon one who at best was just pretending not to grieve, and an alternate one who acted the way someone who just lost the one they loved in that manner SHOULD act:

Simon: What..who the h—- are you?

Spiral: I'm you. The real you.

Simon: B———-! I'm nothing like you!

Spiral: Aren't you? You may smile on the outside, act like all you want to do is help others, but you don't really mean it. That smile is just for show. Deep down, in your core, you hate this world. It's done nothing but take from you. Mom and Dad. Big Brother Kamina. And Nia. You sacrificed and suffered so much and yet you were denied the same happiness that THEY take for granted! That THEY never earned and don't deserve! That's why you left after the wedding isn't it? You couldn't bear to be in the presence of the others. Knowing every time they look at you all they see is poor Simon who couldn't even save the life of the one he loved. And it's your own fault for being weak.

amitakartok Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#358: Apr 23rd 2020 at 2:33:06 PM

What was Simon supposed to do? Bring her back? Then everyone would want their loved ones back. If he refuses to do that, he'll be branded as selfish. If he does, he's doing exactly what the Anti-Spiral told him will kill the fucking universe if he keeps it up.

He had to draw a line. Anti-Spiral ideology is that Spiral races are inherently self-destructive and will not turn away from that path unless forced because their instinct will compel them to keep going. If Simon wants to disprove that claim and save the universe, he has to start somewhere. And that first step is to deny himself what he wants to set an example for the others.

And that is how Simon defeats the Anti-Spiral: by disproving its claim of what he is. He has the power, but chooses out of his own free will not to wield it, to not give in to his instinct like the Anti-Spiral said he would, thus proving that he is not controlled by it.

Simon's not the hero who suddenly gives up. He's the substance abuser who defeats his addiction rather than continue to feed it.

jmf6401 Since: Sep, 2013
#359: Apr 23rd 2020 at 7:33:28 PM

I learned a long time ago, sacrificing for others is never worth it. That's what makes Simon weak and a failure. Furthermore, it's ambiguous whether Spiral Nemesis is even preventable. Humans die, worlds die, stars die, so why not the entire universe? Does it really matter if it happens sooner rather than later. At least you can enjoy yourself while you're waiting for the inevitable.

jmf6401 Since: Sep, 2013
#360: Apr 23rd 2020 at 7:36:09 PM

And also, he didn't have to bring her back as she was still alive up to the wedding. He could have used Spiral Power to grant her a human body with the same vulnerabilities and chances that a normal human could have. Another example of why he deserves to spend his life alone and unloved. And knowing how Gurren Lagann is, Nia probably didn't have a soul so he won't even be reunited with her after he dies. It's almost funny don't you think?

Cozzer Since: Mar, 2015
#361: Apr 23rd 2020 at 11:11:38 PM

Look, it's OK for you to dislike the message of the show, or even to despise it, but it's pretty obivious that you're twisting things on purpose to make it seem the message is this horrible depressive thing that everyone should despise.

The show had something to say, you disagree with it. It's something that happens.

jmf6401 Since: Sep, 2013
#362: Apr 23rd 2020 at 11:40:07 PM

Well what do you call it then?

Cozzer Since: Mar, 2015
#363: Apr 24th 2020 at 12:29:57 AM

Since the beginning, the show tries to balance themes of optimism/determination and loss. The characters show their growth by both refusing to accept anything that's not already happened, and by accepting what's already happened.

The half of the show that's about accepting loss is less flashy and bombastic, but it's there all the time from Kamina's death onwards, in the background of every character and scene. It's what makes the show better than just another shonen story about winning by being more determined than your opponent.

The finale is where both halves of the show come together. The main characters, including the protagonist, have lost important things and need to deal with it, accept it's something that happened and cannot be changed, and go on to change what can still be changed. And that's what they do, each in their own way. (Which can be taken as a big bittersweet metaphor for growing up, like 90% of shows primarly aimed ad teens :p)

(That said, I do agree that Nia's death should have been set up properly, with at least a little more foreshadowing outside of the last episode. The fast pacing of the show ruined it a bit, in this instance).

Well, that's my two cents about what the themes of the show are. Personally, it's my favorite anime series (partly because I found it at just the right time for me). I understand if you dislike it, or the message it tries to convey, but it does have a message that's not remotely similar to what you wrote in the previous posts.

Edited by Cozzer on Apr 24th 2020 at 9:33:41 PM

amitakartok Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#364: Apr 24th 2020 at 8:10:33 AM

I learned a long time ago, sacrificing for others is never worth it.

I... kinda sorta agree with you, but not on the individual level. In my opinion, if a society cannot survive without sacrificing one of their own, they just plain don't deserve to survive. However, that doesn't give anyone license to be assholes to each other. If there's any option to avoid that sacrifice, it should be taken.

Humans die, worlds die, stars die, so why not the entire universe? Does it really matter if it happens sooner rather than later. At least you can enjoy yourself while you're waiting for the inevitable.

Exactly. Every day when the Spiral Nemesis doesn't happen is one more day you can still enjoy in peace.

jmf6401 Since: Sep, 2013
#365: Apr 24th 2020 at 10:19:05 AM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
jmf6401 Since: Sep, 2013
#366: Apr 24th 2020 at 10:35:44 AM

"Exactly. Every day when the Spiral Nemesis doesn't happen is one more day you can still enjoy in peace."

And what's the point of peace if you can't enjoy the same chance for happiness that everyone else gets? You really think you'd be satisfied with a life like that? When you suffer it's only fair that others suffer as well. Especially if all they're doing is leeching off of your own efforts like some parasite. If they aren't strong enough to survive on their own then they don't deserve to.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#367: Apr 24th 2020 at 10:38:22 AM

So... lot of stuff I don't want to unpack in all of that.

I'm curious what you think of the ending of Samurai Jack given all you've said here. because it's quite similar, and I was more upset with that than I was with Gurren Lagann's ending.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#368: Apr 24th 2020 at 10:39:58 AM

~jmf6401, I certainly hope you can make that argument without wishing someone's close family relation will die a preventable death.

jmf6401 Since: Sep, 2013
#369: Apr 24th 2020 at 11:01:34 AM

Samurai Jack was insulting as well but at least Jack had at least somewhat of a more believable reaction to Ashi's death (despite the fact that time doesn't work that way) than Simon did so I'm more forgiving of that.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#370: Apr 24th 2020 at 11:21:09 AM

Alrighty. Common ground.

But equally infuriating is that they expect us to believe that Simon would actually be okay with it after everything he went through, which I'd like to point out goes far and beyond something as simple as a spouse dying. Human emotion does not work like that. I can honestly say that if it were me,

The only things I will voice disagreement with

  • human emotion doesn't work like that
  • if it were me
  • Simon was okay with it

First one human emotion is a complex, multi-faceted subject. Second, I think everybody processes grief differently. Third, he had a week to come to terms with it, and I think by that point in time Simon was already emblazoned with Kamina's spirit. I mean they'd just come off of fighting a cosmic entity whose entire goal was demotivating and eradicating them, who actually had a point that Simon's growing power would create an Apocalypse How, and Simon's answer to it was "f-ck you, 2nd Amendment brah"

So while the ending was a middle finger, I don't look upon it negatively. It leaves a lot of space for Fanfic Fuel with how Earth continued/reunited with other spiral races, shows a man who had ultimate power retire into obscurity, dealing with loss and continuing to exist in spite of it, and I think that's a healthy if somber note to end on. Probably healthier than the earlier morals the show preached about how other people's opinions don't matter and how your personal interpretation of reality is all that matters, and that you will always succeed so long as you yell loud enough (and happen to have unlimited cosmic energy in your veins).

Edited by Soble on Apr 24th 2020 at 11:24:27 AM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
amitakartok Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#371: Apr 24th 2020 at 12:32:48 PM

[up][up][up]I didn't see what he wrote, but that and the hammy Social Darwinist part are enough for me to peace right the fuck out of this argument.

jmf6401 Since: Sep, 2013
#372: Apr 24th 2020 at 12:50:34 PM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#373: Apr 24th 2020 at 12:54:48 PM
jmf6401 Since: Sep, 2013
#374: Apr 24th 2020 at 1:12:43 PM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
RegisteredUser Body contains a Human Soul. from It's as cold as it looks. Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Desperate
Body contains a Human Soul.
#375: Apr 24th 2020 at 1:29:55 PM

No, you are fundamentally misunderstanding what can make people happy and fulfilled, limiting to a far more narrow — and spectrum — than exists in either our reality, let alone the fiction at hand.

Simon finding peace with Nia's death, in not pursuing preserving her life at risk of damaging the universe and depriving it from everything else that exists isn't just a valid course of action as befitting his own morality, and isn't just a moral good for the sake of the majority — it is also, critically, what Nia herself wanted with her own life.

She was not a passive agent here. Her will placed the existence of the universe, the freedom of all other beings in it to have the best shot they could of having the chance to live out their lives, above her own. She was not willing to take that risk. And Simon knew that, because he knew her.

Even if it did not go against who he himself is as a person... to endanger the universe for the sake of bringing Nia back would be an utter betrayal to who she is. And not only is that an act of vile selfishness that should be disqualifying on the face of it, even if we apply the standards of the most narcissistic sort of enlightened self interest, even Simon allowed who he was to decay enough that he'd commit that sort of act to begin with, it wouldn't make Simon happy either.

Nia would never have forgiven him. She would have rejected him. And if he tried to force her to accept it — well again, besides the sheer horrific immorality of such a thing, which really should go without saying actually — it would lead to him having to destroy who she is, the person he loves most, anyway.

No matter what Simon does, he cannot "save" Nia in any way that matters — because she does not go to her death in need of salvation, but with the resolution of being fulfilled with her own life, and how it ends on her terms. Not even a god could change that.

Because Nia isn't the doll that Lordgenome saw her as. She's not a tool nor a prize. She's a person, and her will must be recognized as valid — even if it hurts. Accepting that is the only way she can truly be loved. And Simon does love her, to the end and beyond.

It's not just the right thing to do for her sake, or the universe's sake — accepting her will is the only way Simon can find any degree of happiness himself, with the cruel hand they were both given.

That's why you're wrong.

Edited by RegisteredUser on Apr 24th 2020 at 4:31:36 AM


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