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Zennistrad from The Multiverse Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: I don't mind being locked in this eternal maze!
#101: Feb 15th 2012 at 1:30:31 PM
Thumped: Extreme positions are not tolerated here. We don't care if they're sincere or you're just trolling. Either way, the forums don't need this sort of thing.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#102: Feb 15th 2012 at 1:30:32 PM

"I'm not particularly opposed to this new system, but it seems that organizing the sub-fora in a horizontal arrangement/vertical stack format, with the workshop fora at the top, would do essentially the same thing and not require a separate click-through to get to everything."

I like this idea.

TheInferno |Y| = |X| Add 5 from probably on Earth Since: Jul, 2010
|Y| = |X| Add 5
#103: Feb 15th 2012 at 1:31:54 PM

[up]As said before, I support this

I think I'm posting too much in this thread <_<

edited 15th Feb '12 1:32:08 PM by TheInferno

"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - Charlatan
Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
◥▶◀◤
#104: Feb 15th 2012 at 1:32:40 PM

I likewise support the vertical stack.

Rarely active, try DA/Tumblr Avatar by pippanaffie.deviantart.com
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#105: Feb 15th 2012 at 1:32:45 PM

A vertical format may not be bad. Have the work forums above the fold and the other forums farther down.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
CountSpatula Possible Stomatopod from Oh, some lunar colony Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Possible Stomatopod
#106: Feb 15th 2012 at 1:33:11 PM

[up][up][up][up]Again, I agree with this as well.

edited 15th Feb '12 1:53:44 PM by CountSpatula

I draws things. And I seem to be some sort of marine entity.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#107: Feb 15th 2012 at 1:45:30 PM

I really don't think that Lampshading your Godwin counts as an exemption, Zennistrad. Relevant please.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from A Place (Old Master)
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
#108: Feb 15th 2012 at 1:54:29 PM

but it seems like a bunch of argument that results in either nothing happening or admin fiat, and any big important change is discussed behind closed doors purely by the staff, like this one.
No. This particular change is more-or-less a direct result of the discussion that happened in the "Trope Repair Shop: Does it need improvement?" thread.

And the fact that so many people were surprised by this change demonstrates that the aforementioned thread was correct about the wiki-centric forums needing more visibility. Which this change is attempting to address.

edited 15th Feb '12 2:05:17 PM by MetaFour

TheInferno |Y| = |X| Add 5 from probably on Earth Since: Jul, 2010
|Y| = |X| Add 5
#109: Feb 15th 2012 at 2:06:54 PM

Ah. Didn't see that (and I don't understand what improving TRS has to do with hiding most of the forums, but expecting any topic on TV Tropes to stay on-topic is like telling rain not to be wet tongue).

Still, my point was that at least for me, the reason I don't go to the left-side is not that the forums look big and scary, and more that I feel like my point of view is treated as insignificant. That's probably not true for everyone and I might be the only one that feels that way, but *shrug*

Wait, so hiding the forums is supposed to make me look at all the various discussions which derail repeatedly and constantly deadlock? All it does is make me slightly miffed and make me click an extra time. I understood the "Let new people get in the central part first" argument but no way in hell is this getting me to go to the wiki-side more often.

edited 15th Feb '12 2:10:28 PM by TheInferno

"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - Charlatan
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#110: Feb 15th 2012 at 2:07:05 PM

I'm just saying, a bit of warning would have been nice.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
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#111: Feb 15th 2012 at 2:08:05 PM

If this makes no feasible sense please fell free to ignore it but: Maybe you could put the actually workshop on the side of the wiki, instead of just a general link to it on the top. Like under the wiki headlines.

Rarely active, try DA/Tumblr Avatar by pippanaffie.deviantart.com
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#112: Feb 15th 2012 at 2:09:50 PM

[up][up][up] You aren't insignificant, you're just no more significant than anyone else and to a lot of people that makes them feel insignificant. There's no really way to fix that though without actually disenfranchising some group.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#113: Feb 15th 2012 at 2:11:11 PM

Another annoying change.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#114: Feb 15th 2012 at 2:12:26 PM

They Changed It, Now It Sucks! isn't exactly the best argument on the matter.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
TheInferno |Y| = |X| Add 5 from probably on Earth Since: Jul, 2010
|Y| = |X| Add 5
#115: Feb 15th 2012 at 2:12:59 PM

Oh, I know my opinion matters no more than anyone else. It's just when 90% of the threads I was in either deadlocked or fell to admin fiat, with or without much input from me, and the same thing happened in threads I wasn't involved in...

I like to think I had some good ideas, and helped out the wiki, but sometimes it felt like people just ignored what I wrote and just argued with it because it wasn't what they wanted. Hell, like I said before, I have a bad habit of memories being worse than the actual thing, so maybe I'm blowing this out of proportion.

edited 15th Feb '12 2:14:58 PM by TheInferno

"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - Charlatan
MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from A Place (Old Master)
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
#116: Feb 15th 2012 at 2:14:29 PM

and I don't understand what improving TRS has to do with hiding most of the forums, but expecting any topic on TV Tropes to stay on-topic is like telling rain not to be wet
Well, one of the criticisms in that thread was how it seemed like the TRS regulars were a cabal, secretly wielding disproportionate influence across the entire wiki. One of the solutions for fixing that perception is to increase visibility for TRS and related subforums—which means something else (in this case, the rest of the forum) has to become less visible.

CountSpatula Possible Stomatopod from Oh, some lunar colony Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Possible Stomatopod
#117: Feb 15th 2012 at 2:19:37 PM

Wouldn't it be more sensible just to separate the two? Give them each their own button at the top. I mean, they are just so radically unrelated in terms of purpose that there seems to be no need to sacrifice one to enhance the other.

I draws things. And I seem to be some sort of marine entity.
TheInferno |Y| = |X| Add 5 from probably on Earth Since: Jul, 2010
|Y| = |X| Add 5
#118: Feb 15th 2012 at 2:21:04 PM

I'd argue you could just link TRS in every page under discussion and any time someone said "Who said so and when!?" you could respond with "TRS, a place where anyone, including you, could talk about things", except that you already do that. I think the aforementioned vertical stack would work better and still preserve SOME visibility. Or make it so the wiki-side forums have a different formatting (bold font, light blue background?) or both!

[up]It's not really sacrificing, since it's still there. Hell, I wouldn't mind this set up if the "Workshops" list had a "More Forums" added to the current list that would let you get to the rest of them. As is, you have to know that you aren't at the top of the forum already and hit "Forum Top"

edited 15th Feb '12 2:22:35 PM by TheInferno

"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - Charlatan
SilentReverence adopting kitteh from 3 tiles right 1 tile up Since: Jan, 2010
adopting kitteh
#119: Feb 15th 2012 at 2:21:24 PM

Don't know what to say about the current subject that hasn't been said at this point, except that I guess I'd remind people essentially nothing was changed — there is still and always has been an access to the full forums from the main page.

As for the "the whole RP / fun side of the forum contributes zero or is negative to the wiki", I honestly feel more or less hurt from that. You have to consider that in certain cases, the "right side" of the forum are actual works that are being developed and troped. Certainly in these cases changing the top menu loses nothing, but still grouping all those people in the same "negative value for the wiki" as everyone else sets the wrong image and invokes a very, very far from friendly perception. Heck, up until today, the characters page of one of the forum RPs I am in was the largest page in the wiki. More info than, say, Berserk or friggin' Harry Potter. All that was not born from thin air — it was born because there was, is, and hopefully will continue to be a troper community here.

Fanfic Recs orwellianretcon'd: cutlocked for committee or for Google?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#120: Feb 15th 2012 at 2:23:26 PM

Okay, forum RP's contributing to the tropes is potentially valid, I'll give you that. It's not really anything I consider myself qualified to judge, but Eddie's stats are fairly conclusive as to forum-wiki cross participation.

Eddie's looking at a "more forums" / "less forums" link on the respective top pages.

edited 15th Feb '12 2:23:51 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from A Place (Old Master)
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
#121: Feb 15th 2012 at 2:25:14 PM

For what it's worth, I actually like the vertical stack idea myself.

TheInferno |Y| = |X| Add 5 from probably on Earth Since: Jul, 2010
|Y| = |X| Add 5
#122: Feb 15th 2012 at 2:29:25 PM

[up][up]Hey, if we have that and it's fairly visible I'd be perfectly happy. The only other thing I could think of is rearranging the workshops area but that's an aesthetics thing and if I start nitpicking that I should get thwacked over the head, so...

edited 15th Feb '12 2:29:52 PM by TheInferno

"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - Charlatan
Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#123: Feb 15th 2012 at 2:46:58 PM

What I find really interesting is this:

I started that "TRS: Does it need improvement?" thread for the alleged silent majority to come and voice their opinions. Only a few people came around for it who weren't already part of the TRS regular or at least semi-regular crowd. Those members of the "majority" were very vocal, however, and made many suggestions on how things could be changed, including something like what was just done.

Then, when there's an actual change made, people come out of the woodwork complaining about it. All people who are clearly strong forum participants, but probably not in the "left side" where all the actual hard work gets done. We have yet to hear from Cryptic Mirror and her (possibly imaginary) friends in the "silent majority." I doubt they'll be any more satisfied with this change, but we'll never know because they are either inexplicably terrified of the forums, or don't exist.

What I'm trying to get at is that we're starting to see an Unpleasable Fanbase right here on TV Tropes itself. People are willing to gripe and complain when something changes, but aren't willing to be part of the initial process of changing it - or not - for the better in the first place.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
CountSpatula Possible Stomatopod from Oh, some lunar colony Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Possible Stomatopod
#124: Feb 15th 2012 at 2:53:57 PM

I honestly don't see why that's so surprising. The fact of the matter is, people won't come to complain about a problem until they discover that it exists.

Oftentimes, people don't even realize that this sort of thing has been considered a problem by some until after a change has been implemented about it. This isn't their fault, it's just a matter of faulty communication.

edited 15th Feb '12 2:55:46 PM by CountSpatula

I draws things. And I seem to be some sort of marine entity.
Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
◥▶◀◤
#125: Feb 15th 2012 at 2:54:23 PM

[up][up]Maybe that's because the people didn't see anything wrong in the first place. Are we not allowed to have lives and activities off the left side of the fora? Not everyone can be bothered to refresh TRS and wiki-talk every five minutes to debate things.

I love this site but I see the left-side of the fora as nothing but a big headache. I only come over here when I see something so wrong that it's an even bigger headache.

edited 15th Feb '12 2:57:10 PM by Vyctorian

Rarely active, try DA/Tumblr Avatar by pippanaffie.deviantart.com

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