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RobbieRotten Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#351: Feb 16th 2012 at 4:48:03 PM

i'll let it go for the time being, but i still think this is a weird change

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#352: Feb 16th 2012 at 6:03:06 PM

With the new, very proeminent, links in the bottom of the list, I think the situation is cleared. Now the Workshop is more visible to usual wiki goers as well as forum newbies, which will hopefully attract more people to them, while the whole forum is by no means hard to find. Furthermore, it also draws more attention to the media forums, which is probably the second more important forums, behind the workshop (the wiki is abut media in general almost as much as about tropes, after all).

edited 16th Feb '12 6:03:15 PM by Heatth

TheInferno |Y| = |X| Add 5 from probably on Earth Since: Jul, 2010
|Y| = |X| Add 5
#353: Feb 16th 2012 at 6:05:36 PM

[up]Well said.

"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - Charlatan
TheProffesor The Professor from USA Since: Jan, 2011
#354: Feb 16th 2012 at 6:16:52 PM

I sort of like the new setup. It takes some getting used to, but it's good.

Enzeru icon by implodingoracle from Orlando, FL ¬ôχಠ♥¯ Since: Mar, 2011
icon by implodingoracle
#355: Feb 16th 2012 at 7:32:10 PM

It doesn't effect me too much; I was getting panicky, but I later realized that I usually just pressed "forums" and then went straight to My Watchlist unless I felt like checking OTC or YF. That last part's the only thing that's probably that different for regular forum-goers.

KrisMahai Hm? Since: Jan, 2013
Hm?
#356: Feb 16th 2012 at 10:52:16 PM

I feel like we're on a bit of an extended derail about the purpose/usefulness/nature of the forums right now, but I'd like to get back to the change itself.

Now, this change was to emphasize the part of the forums devoted to the site itself and simplify the forum interface, thus attracting new users, correct? Do we have any evidence this is working? If the intention was to increase troper participation the the workshop forums, we should evaluate whether or not the new format is doing so, or else the entire change is pointless. Now, I realize it might be a little early to compare forum traffic, but it's still worth looking at.

Another point: if this change is to increase forum participation, why on earth would we not have a headline about it? That's erasing the entire point. If people aren't aware of a change, they're not going to react to it. If there is indeed a group of people who were intimidated by the forum's previous look, wouldn't we want to tell them "Hey, the forums are simpler now. Come on over!"? It's like being frustrated about someone complaining that the coffee maker is broken when you haven't told them you fixed it two weeks ago.

edited 16th Feb '12 10:58:06 PM by KrisMahai

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”
CountSpatula Possible Stomatopod from Oh, some lunar colony Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Possible Stomatopod
#357: Feb 17th 2012 at 2:30:29 AM

I feel as if the barrier that this change is presenting to new visitors is being vastly under-emphasized.

If someone is new to the site, and is looking for a forum to discuss things on, they are logically going to look for some sort of button labeled "forums." They aren't going to go click on something labeled "workshops," as that would be functionally meaningless to someone unfamiliar with the site, and at a first glance has absolutely nothing to do with forums.

It isn't a matter of laziness, it is matter of a complete lack of intuitivity. A viewer may at some point go and experiment with all the various buttons at random, but finding the forums this way does not help with any newbies who are actively looking for them.

And Hydronix, let me ask you something. How exactly do you expect new readers to become editors? You present things as if there is some sort of enormous fundamental gap between editors and any other readers, but the fact of the matter is, all of the editors were just visitors at some point. And any new visitor has the potential to become an editor and work on the wiki. The logical step here is to do everything possible to draw new visitors in, and even more importantly, ensure that they stick around. Because the longer they are hear, the more likely it is that they will ultimately decide to chip in. So it seems key in getting people to stay, to provide them with an easily accessible place to commune and chat, regardless of what it is that they want to commune and chat about.

I draws things. And I seem to be some sort of marine entity.
Atalan Since: Feb, 2011
#358: Feb 17th 2012 at 3:43:44 AM

I like the change, and I like the idea mentioned earlier of PMing new Tropers to draw attention to the workshops.

edited 17th Feb '12 3:44:01 AM by Atalan

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#359: Feb 17th 2012 at 3:58:30 AM

[up][up]You are aware a button for the forums still exist (with the name 'forum'), right? I believe if one is actively looking for it, they will still find it.

ThatHuman someone from someplace Since: Jun, 2010
someone
#360: Feb 17th 2012 at 3:59:03 AM

[up][up] Regarding easiness to find: The forum button wasn't all that prominent back then either. Anyway, if somebody wants to find a TV tropes forum, they'll probably use a search engine or something. I mean, what, are they gonna go "there is no button that says FORUMS, I guess there aren't any," or something?

something
polutropon Since: Dec, 2011
#361: Feb 17th 2012 at 4:03:50 AM

I have never seem so many people arguing passionately for making a user interface worse before I came to this site.

It's like an extremely nerdy kind of Stockholm Syndrome.

ThatHuman someone from someplace Since: Jun, 2010
someone
#362: Feb 17th 2012 at 4:08:53 AM

[up] You assume that arguing on the internet requires some sort of emotional investment? And anyway, it's only the people who are against this who make such a big deal of it. "oh no, if there is no tiny button that says FORUMS and is IMMEDIATELY VISIBLE, people would assume there isn't such a thing, D:".

edited 17th Feb '12 4:15:39 AM by ThatHuman

something
Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#363: Feb 17th 2012 at 4:33:39 AM

edited 17th Feb '12 4:40:30 AM by Martello

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
Gaunt88 from Australia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#364: Feb 17th 2012 at 4:39:01 AM

@ heatth: Not on the front page it doesn't, which is exactly Spatula's point.

If an additional "Forums" button on the top bar is for some reason completely out of the question, how about adding a few lines to the site's opening spiel about what the workshops are and where to find the rest of the forums?

edited 17th Feb '12 4:41:17 AM by Gaunt88

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#365: Feb 17th 2012 at 4:41:10 AM

It is on the from page. I just checked. It is in the 'Tropersville' toolbar.

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#366: Feb 17th 2012 at 8:14:59 AM

Which is pretty obscure, auto hidden, surrounded by ads with no real obvious tell that it is a drop down thing let alone that it is obvious that it is in there. (Let alone know what the heck that means.)

If it was set to be open all the time first it would make things better and let people find lost and found and other things easier. (with Mouseover Laconics of what exactly all those things are for.)

IMO just putting forums up top by merging the watch list buttons would be the best bet and make everyone happy.

edited 17th Feb '12 8:23:28 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
ThatHuman someone from someplace Since: Jun, 2010
someone
#367: Feb 17th 2012 at 8:30:25 AM

[up]Well, I use Firefox, and my browser will tell me if a button is a link or otherwise.

edited 17th Feb '12 8:30:46 AM by ThatHuman

something
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#368: Feb 17th 2012 at 9:07:34 AM

Eddie just added some drop arrows, thanks Eddie.

Fight smart, not fair.
Colonial1.1 Purveyor of Obscurity from The Marvelous River City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Purveyor of Obscurity
#369: Feb 17th 2012 at 9:08:25 AM

Drop arrows?

"He could not know it. For it was not all a joke."
Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#370: Feb 17th 2012 at 9:10:28 AM

They're kinda perfunctory-looking (at least in IE), but they're an improvement.

CountSpatula Possible Stomatopod from Oh, some lunar colony Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Possible Stomatopod
#371: Feb 17th 2012 at 10:08:22 AM

Indeed. It's a bit crude looking, but hey, it's a start.

I draws things. And I seem to be some sort of marine entity.
Enzeru icon by implodingoracle from Orlando, FL ¬ôχಠ♥¯ Since: Mar, 2011
icon by implodingoracle
#372: Feb 17th 2012 at 10:21:27 AM

Drop arrows? What I'm seeing is this.

Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#373: Feb 17th 2012 at 10:38:32 AM

[up] The buttons don't show up in the forums, you'd have to be on a work/trope page to see them on the left side of the screen.

Lock Space Wizard from Germany Since: Sep, 2010
Space Wizard
#374: Feb 17th 2012 at 10:44:26 AM

The troperville, tools and toy menus on the wiki now have a ∇ next to them to indicate that they're dropdown (which actually isn't the upside down triangle which would be ▽).

edited 17th Feb '12 10:44:58 AM by Lock

Programming and surgery have a lot of things in common: Don't start removing colons until you know what you're doing.
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#375: Feb 17th 2012 at 10:47:49 AM

I'm happy with the new "all forums" button at the bottom of the Workshops page.


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