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Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland
Overlording the Underworld
Dec 4th 2019 at 2:43:16 PM

I was speaking meta with the Heel–Face Turn stuff. As if the character told Zahn off for making him an actual bad guy. After the heavy shilling he's more anti-villain at best. He has reasons for doing what he does and he doesn't really want to piss away the strength of his forces by fighting needless battles.

Edited by Journeyman on Dec 4th 2019 at 5:43:33 AM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile
Dec 4th 2019 at 2:49:53 PM

[up] And yet he still fought for a xenophobic dictatorship that thought blowing up whole planets was a sound government policy.

He even perpetuated some of the Empires worst practices (look at his treatment of the Noghri).

Honestly, the closest any Imperial character might haven gotten to a Face–Heel Turn while remaining an Imperial was Pelleaon. And that still required a) him brute-forcing both a peace treaty and some tolerance reforms through internal resistance and b) most of the imperial leadership to die for various reasons to actually give him a shot at the leadership.

It actually feels weird how out of place Pelleaon feels at times - he's probably the only Imperial I can think of who somehow developed a moral compass without defecting from the Empire and simultaneously managed to become a high-ranking leader.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Dec 4th 2019 at 11:54:54 AM

Ceterum autem censeo Iam Primum Postem esse delendam.
theLibrarian That all you got? from his own little world
That all you got?
Dec 4th 2019 at 5:29:52 PM

Plenty of people worked for the Empire because they actually thought that it was the best option for the galaxy, especially those that grew up in the chaos of the Clone Wars brought about by the Republic's complacency and decadence.

That is the face of a man who just ate a kitten. Raw.
Dec 4th 2019 at 6:17:12 PM

Sure, but sooner or later they had to confront the fact that the Empire was a horrifying fascist state invented by an evil wizard for no other purpose than to empower him personally while torturing the galaxy in the process. Yeah it could take a while for people to notice, and a good chunk of the Empire was dedicated to propaganda about "order" and "doing what is necessary," but in the end it's all empty rhetoric covering up Palpatine screwing with everyone for his own amusement.

That was what the novel Death Star was all about; many people on the Death Star were not monsters, but they were still on the wrong side. When they realized that, they had no choice but to defect.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile
Dec 4th 2019 at 11:07:38 PM

[up]Which was exactly my point. Being an Imperial with somewhat of a moral compass usually means you're not going to be an Imperial for much longer.

It's why Pelleaon is such an outlier and without all the more dickish Imperial leaders either dying off or being removed from power - he took over after Daala had her one smart idea and resigned - he likely wouldn't have gotten as far as he did.

Ceterum autem censeo Iam Primum Postem esse delendam.
Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland
Overlording the Underworld
Dec 5th 2019 at 6:12:57 AM

I haven't seen the shows after Clone Wars, so I don't know everything about his retcons. What I do know is that he specifically came out AGAINST the Death Star in the new canon, and his efforts on the Empire were uniting the Galaxy against an external threat. While I'm not doubting you're correct, the new version of him has, to my limited viewpoint, screamed anti-villain rather than card carrying fascist.

jakobitis from Lots of places Relationship Status: I'm Clockwork and she's Quartz
Dec 5th 2019 at 12:22:10 PM

O.G. Thrawn did tend to disapprove of the more brutal excesses of other Imperial leaders but it was at least in part due to pragmatism as much as morality. The new Thrawn seems to be generally more moral and idealistic (relatively speaking) but that's by Imperial standards not Rebel ones.

theLibrarian That all you got? from his own little world
That all you got?
Dec 5th 2019 at 1:38:09 PM

Yeah, he did disapprove of the high civilian casualties at Batone.

That is the face of a man who just ate a kitten. Raw.
Dec 5th 2019 at 7:28:46 PM

I wonder what differences TROS novelization will have from the film.

The Protomen enhanced my life.
Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland
Overlording the Underworld
Dec 6th 2019 at 8:02:10 AM

[up][up][up]Thrawn's a military man to start with. Added to that is the fact he's convinced he knows something brutal is coming to the galaxy. If it weren't for that fact, I'm not so sure Thrawn would be quite this heavily against democracy without the looming threat he sees out there. No, in fact, I can GUARANTEE Thrawn wouldn't be against the Galactic Republic if he didn't think he needed a unified galaxy to face what was coming. The Republic wouldn't have been able to unify against the Chiss as easily as an empire would, so it would be easier to face a bunch of small groups Thrawn could play off of each other rather than the big machinery of a massive empire.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile
Dec 6th 2019 at 9:08:26 AM

[up]

I'm not so sure Thrawn would be quite this heavily against democracy without the looming threat he sees out there
Isn't Chiss culture pretty authoritarian, though? Or was that changed when they brought Thrawn over to the canon?

Ceterum autem censeo Iam Primum Postem esse delendam.
theLibrarian That all you got? from his own little world
That all you got?
Dec 6th 2019 at 11:59:36 AM

It is. Both then and now, Thrawn was banished from Chiss Space because he wouldn't follow their rules.

Even if in this canon it was all a ploy to spy on the Empire.

That is the face of a man who just ate a kitten. Raw.
DrunkenNordmann from Exile
Dec 6th 2019 at 12:02:01 PM

[up] Wasn't it in the EU because he was too ruthless even by Chiss standards?

Ceterum autem censeo Iam Primum Postem esse delendam.
doineedaname from Eastern US
Dec 6th 2019 at 12:29:07 PM

[up] In the EU he'd broken their rule of not attacking first IIRC.

Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland
Overlording the Underworld
Dec 7th 2019 at 3:44:29 AM

They're authoritarian (Hence their country being called the Chiss Ascendancy) but they don't like to attack others without provocation. At least they didn't. They never struck me as conquerors, they just want their borders safe from outside threat.

Of course, Alliance put forth the fact that enemies were infiltrating their government and gaining traction, so there's that to contend with.

miraculous Chicks dig psychopaths from South Africa
Chicks dig psychopaths
Jan 3rd 2020 at 2:10:04 PM

So I intend to start going through the expanded verse novels. Where do you guys think I should start

"A darkness approaches. A day will come in the future where everything you care about will change... Until then I'll be watching you!"
theLibrarian That all you got? from his own little world
That all you got?
Jan 3rd 2020 at 2:42:42 PM

Thrawn trilogy

Darth Plagueis

Darth Bane trilogy

That is the face of a man who just ate a kitten. Raw.
jjjj2 It's a me! Jjjj 2! from Mushroom Kingdom
It's a me! Jjjj 2!
Jan 3rd 2020 at 4:17:20 PM

Matt Stovers Revenge of the Sith Novelization. Seriously.

[down]Edit: Well it's a great book...grin

Edited by jjjj2 on Jan 3rd 2020 at 7:22:26 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
miraculous Chicks dig psychopaths from South Africa
Chicks dig psychopaths
Jan 3rd 2020 at 4:18:28 PM

Oh I've read the novelisation already.

That said thanks for the other recs.

"A darkness approaches. A day will come in the future where everything you care about will change... Until then I'll be watching you!"
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
Jan 3rd 2020 at 7:14:30 PM

Shatterpoint, Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, I Jedi, the X-Wing series are all excellent as well.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
HeraldAlberich from Ohio Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
Jan 3rd 2020 at 7:22:59 PM

Yes to all of those. After the Thrawn trilogy, read Timothy Zahn's other work. I'm fond of Star Wars: Kenobi as well.

Jan 3rd 2020 at 9:08:47 PM

After the Thrawn Trilogy, the X-Wing novels: Rogue Squadron, Wedge’s Gamble, The Krytos Trap and The Bacta War by Michael A Stackpole, and Wraith Squadron, Iron Fist and Solo Command by Aaron Allston. (Set in the years between ROTJ and the Thrawn Trilogy.) Also Allston’s Starfighters of Adumar, set a few years after the Thrawn Trilogy - it’s hilarious and an absolute gem.

Stackpole’s I, Jedi is also excellent, but the first part is a bit of a Fix Fic for Kevin J Anderson’s (pretty terrible) Jedi Academy Trilogy. Still, I think the book makes sense on its own.

Shatterpoint (Clone Wars era) is also fantastic.

Edited by Galadriel on Jan 3rd 2020 at 12:13:47 PM

HeraldAlberich from Ohio Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
Jan 3rd 2020 at 9:14:47 PM

[up] Can't forget about Isard's Revenge, which is set just after the Thrawn Trilogy (the first scene is a P.O.V. Sequel of the trilogy's final battle) and wraps up Stackpole's X-Wing Series storyline.

Jan 5th 2020 at 8:37:51 PM

The ROTJ novel was great too.

The Protomen enhanced my life.
EndlessSea LEGENDARY GALE from oh no you don't Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
LEGENDARY GALE
Jan 8th 2020 at 5:38:16 PM

Obligatory mention of Traitor and Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor. Although I'd advise reading the latter only after checking out Shatterpoint, and the former itself benefits from the mixed bag that makes up the Yuuzhan Vong war.

Oh, and here's a left-fielder for ya: Wild Space. It's specifically linked to the CG Clone Wars cartoon and features Obi-Wan and Bail Organa going on a road trip (metaphorically speaking) to an old Sith artifact hidey-hole with a goofy name, promptly followed by Bad Things happening. It's pretty grim (as my other two recommendations are, honestly), but we get some really nice character writing, including a couple scenes from Palpatine's perspective that are absolutely delicious to read through.

but HOW?

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