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Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#826: Aug 20th 2019 at 10:34:22 PM

I'm almost done with Thrawn. It's actually still cool. For a while I felt like it was still shilling, but two of my co-workers know about or even have read the book and once they pointed out how easy Thrawn himself is to beat, I started noticing the patterns in all his victories. They even match what we know of the Chiss. I have to hand it to Zahn for being so consistent and managing to follow through on his idea that an entire race can be predicted, even while giving his main "hero" all the wins.

Thrawn thrives on surgical strikes that rely on knowing your enemy ahead of time. You can see the thread of it all the way in the beginning and it just follows from there. The man himself is actually predictable and it's only down to Imperial arrogance that he was able to win without being taken out so much.

I also find it cool that Zahn managed to work his backstory stuff from the original Thrawn trilogy into this story, and even update it for the new continuity. Like when Thrawn talked about telling the Emperor a battle couldn't be won, getting arrested for it, then coming back into service when another commander lost the same battle and vindicated Thrawn's statement. In this case it wasn't the Emperor or an arrest, it was High Command and he was simply assigned a different part of the mission.

Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#827: Aug 26th 2019 at 7:05:44 PM

Well, last week I finished Thrawn and jumped into Alliances. Thrawn felt like it was shilling after a while, and it kind of both was and wasn't. The idiot ball was passed around a lot of other people, but not actually unrealistically. It's actually fairly normal for politically connected idiots to play musical titles in a dictatorship like the Empire. Him dealing with so many idiots felt like shilling, but he had enough important allies who saw him as a tool rather than a friend. Eli felt like he was being shilled, but he really just got lucky enough to know a useful language and then have his career upended to follow in Thrawn's coattails. All the way up to getting a job offer to work for the Chiss Ascendancy as an advisor on the Empire. It also really helps to counter the feeling of being shilled to when you remember that Thrawn was already the Hero of Another Story before he ever joined the Empire. This is just giving us a crash course in the history of Thrawn's career so he can be the Grand Admiral again.

I've finished most of Alliances, and it's fun watching Vader and Thrawn interact. You've got the brooding Sith being annoyed and biding his time until he can throttle the know-it-all, and he keeps having to bide his time because Thrawn makes just enough sense to tap dance his way out of trouble. There's even a time or two when Thrawn himself is shaken a bit, or realizes there's a very good chance Vader will justify killing him if he doesn't tread softly and play it smart. Kind of good to see the always-unshakable Grand Admiral getting the squeeze put on him for a change. Also, Alliances brought Cortosis back into canon. Really, the major downside to the book is that it's actually two short novels shuffled into one longer one. Alternating chapters take place in two different time periods. The past where Thrawn meets Anakin and helps him on a personal mission not terribly long after Ahsoka leaves, and the present, where Thrawn and Vader revisit the world they'd been on before, right after Thrawn's appearance in Rebels. Even then, I don't see it as a problem, I just know others probably won't like the time skipping.

Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
#828: Sep 1st 2019 at 9:11:58 PM

Apropos of not much, Zahn's Thrawn: Alliances won "Best Media Tie-in Novel" in the Dragon Awards.

(Multimedia awards given out by the sci-fi/fantasy/etc con DragonCon.)

Other contestants in the category, and what they tie into:

Edited by Nohbody on Sep 1st 2019 at 12:14:44 PM

All your safe space are belong to Trump
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#829: Sep 2nd 2019 at 11:05:38 AM

Just finished Alphabet Squadron.

http://booknest.eu/reviews/charles/1649-starwarsalphabetsquadron

4.5/5

Kind of reads like a deconstruction of Wraith Squadron.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#830: Sep 2nd 2019 at 11:39:40 AM

What, like how a squadron of failures and dropouts with clashing personalities doesn't work well together?

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#831: Sep 2nd 2019 at 12:01:19 PM

In fact, that is EXACTLY what I mean.

"I want a team of the people that no one else wants."

[Team hates each other and is ineffective as a unit]

Not what I expected!

:)

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#832: Sep 2nd 2019 at 5:29:38 PM

Well duh, you have to work insanely hard at it to get one of those squadrons to work right. You've gotta figure out why people don't like each other and pretty much play big bad wolf throwing them at just the right problems to get them to see each other in a better light. And even then it's unlikely to work.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#833: Sep 2nd 2019 at 6:37:34 PM

Yes, but it's hilarious to see it happen in Star Wars where the Ragtag Band of Misfits is always expected to win.

There's a minor Villainous Breakdown by one of the Imperial defectors who hates everything about the Mildly Military Rebellion turned New Republic, right up until her brain breaks when it's pointed out the Empire not only lost but is being exterminated by these guys.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 2nd 2019 at 6:38:23 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#834: Sep 3rd 2019 at 3:36:35 PM

Yup, and literally the only reason they were losing is because they were ruled by a Cult of Personality whose chief decided to A. waste excessive resources on not one but TWO big, impractical vanity weapons and B. get cocky enough to invite his enemies to take on the second one before it was even ready.

I'm not going to mention the Luke/Vader subplot to that whole thing because, frankly, if the Rebels hadn't taken out most of the remaining top tier talent of the Empire in that one single battle, I think someone could have taken the reins and kept the Empire together after old raisinface did the backstroke into the reactor. They might have lost a little ground while the in-fighting was going on, but I doubt the Empire would have fallen out of favor so badly with that top talent pool still intact. And no, I don't think it would have been Luke or Vader in charge. They were the only two in the room with Palps and would be the only real suspects for the crime.

Edited by Journeyman on Sep 3rd 2019 at 6:37:40 AM

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#835: Sep 3rd 2019 at 7:33:06 PM

Besides Nazi symbolism, is there any reason why the books introduced the Empire as being fantastic racists to aliens? The movies never really implied it, the non-stormtroopers being a bunch of British guys seemed only there because a)showing the monolithic nature of the Empire to contrast the Rebel Alliance and b)because it'd be impracticable to use a bunch of alien costumes on bit players that is most Empire-aligned characters(Vader, Tarkin and the Emperor are the only Empire characters that really do anything)

Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#836: Sep 3rd 2019 at 8:43:48 PM

It's probably the same reason no Correllian cares about the odds and all Bothans are suited to backhanded stealth work. It's what we heard/saw on the screen so it got expanded into being everyone's hat. To be fair, we got a whole slew of non-players in the Mos Eisley Cantina and they were all aliens. No reason we couldn't be allowed to see a few aliens hidden in the ranks of the non-storm troopers, or even a guy walking around in non-standard trooper armor. Even a few scattered around would have broken the idea of the Empire as human-supremacist.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#837: Sep 3rd 2019 at 10:17:52 PM

Though what I always found interesting about the Empire's "High Human Culture" (as it's called in the EU) is that a) its roots seem to predate the Empire (i.e. a lot of the people who ended up spearheading or embracing it were already xenophobic long before Palpatine came around, especially on the Core Worlds) and b) Palpatine himself didn't seem to be an active proponent of it.

Which makes some sense if you look at what kind of person Palpatine is - he's extremely misanthropic and doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself. The Empire's xenophobia and chauvinism is merely a tool through which he maintains control over his underlings.

Of course said policies also backfired in that they drove whole species into the arms of the Rebellion.

Even the New Republic still had to deal with the baggage - again, pro-human bias did predate the Empire - as a common criticism made by alien politicians was how the goverment still seemed to be controlled by humans (Mon Mothma, Leia etc). Though it really didn't help that the first alien head of state was Borsk Fey'lya (and I just noticed that his surname actually sounds like "failure" - took me bloody years to notice).

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 4th 2019 at 3:17:59 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#838: Sep 4th 2019 at 6:42:50 AM

[up][up] I still remember how the X-wing novels deconstructed the Bothan attitude.

"We sacrificed lots of operatives and got the plans to the Second Death Star!"

"You were allowed to get them and nearly got us all killed."

"But we still got them!"

"You guys are idiots."

Edited by theLibrarian on Sep 4th 2019 at 8:43:54 AM

HeraldAlberich from Ohio (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#839: Sep 4th 2019 at 9:55:16 AM

I don't think the speciesism (or for that matter the misogyny) of the Empire in the movies was only coincidental, at least by the time of Return of the Jedi. In ANH, both sides are entirely human and, other than the princess who needs rescuing, male. Lucas got all his "galaxy is full of weird aliens" worldbuilding done in the cantina scene and didn't build on it in the first film, which given the budget and other constraints is fine.

In ESB, Leia is now a war leader in her own right and there are at least a couple other women in Echo Base, but still none among the Imperials seen. Aliens include Chewie, Yoda, the barely seen Ugnaughts and bounty hunters, and, well, that's it.

But in ROTJ, the Rebel leaders include women and fish people, and there are other species represented at the briefing and in the battle. But the Empire? Nothing's changed. If Lucas and the writers didn't want to include Fantastic Racism among the Empire's faults, that would have been the movie to do it, but instead they drew a deliberate contrast between the Empire and the Rebellion as soon as it occurred to them to have more than a couple aliens outside of a bar.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#840: Sep 4th 2019 at 11:46:00 AM

George Lucas, surprisingly, is actually a fairly RPG-orientated sort of fellow. When he created the Star Wars universe he made literally hundreds of notes that he gave to the Star Wars RPG people to put in their books like how Han met Chewbacca, how the Empire functioned, and more.

One of the things is that Chewbacca (and Ackbar) was a former slave and that the Empire was profoundly racist to Wookies as well as other aliens.

We get a hint in how Chewbacca is treated.

"Where are you taking this...thing?"

Mind you, there's not many Empires in history that WEREN'T racist. Its kind of a foundation of the concept in us over them.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 4th 2019 at 11:47:39 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
HeraldAlberich from Ohio (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#841: Sep 4th 2019 at 10:18:10 PM

Hmm. I knew that about Chewie and Ackbar, and that Zahn and other early E.U. writers got a lot of their background info from the RPG, but I hadn’t heard that the RPG in turn was built on Lucas’s own notes. Interesting.

Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#842: Sep 5th 2019 at 4:26:06 AM

Understandably he didn't want to be tied down on canon. Given how much the series changed between movies, and created issues, it makes sense he'd deem everything outside the movies to be secondary.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#843: Sep 5th 2019 at 6:35:12 AM

[up][up][up]It makes perfect sense that George Lucas is a lore nerd — in terms of writing, that's where he tends to excel.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#844: Sep 5th 2019 at 7:08:23 PM

I imagined it helped with the toys as well.

"Okay, we need to make up a story for this fish guy."

"Oh no, that's Admiral Ackbar. This is Boba Fett, who is a Mandalorian who was defeated by the Jedi during the Clone Wars. These are Chief Chirpa, Wicket, and Princess Nambi. Oh and Teebo."

"You...named the Ewoks?"

"Why wouldn't I?"

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#845: Nov 26th 2019 at 8:35:33 AM

This just popped up on my feed out of nowhere, but Zahn has another Thrawn trilogy coming in hot, dealing with his time among the Chiss before being "exiled" to the Empire

First book launches May 2020.

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#846: Nov 26th 2019 at 12:32:53 PM

Ehhhh.... Kinda burned out on Thrawn now. I mean, he's not THAT compelling.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#847: Nov 28th 2019 at 4:55:37 PM

Thrawn becomes ridiculous the more he shows up. It was true in Legends, it was true now.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#848: Nov 29th 2019 at 1:44:39 AM

Agreed. I was never as much a Thrawn fan as some admittedly but I enjoyed the original Thrawn trilogy and Outbound Flight a lot, the new Thrawn books I find at least readable. But I'm very done with the guy by now.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#849: Nov 29th 2019 at 8:07:58 AM

It feels like shilling at this point. Now, a book about Eli Vanto's time with the Chiss helping them get ready for the Empire's potential invasion might not be so bad. Vanto wasn't the one being shilled in those books. Thrawn? Unless it's about him taking over the Imperial Remnant as the Grand Admiral, I've no use for more Thrawn books. And even then, he'd better have a competent rival who actually challenges him for once. No one in the last two books really mattered except for Thrawn.

ETA: I loved the original Thrawn Trilogy because he was up against the heroes and they were able to sneak stuff by him. After that he made a Heel–Face Turn and almost no one could get by him. You might have had that rebel leader and the governor in Thrawn, but the rebel was about ready to work WITH Thrawn if he'd survived, and Governor Pryce was getting one over on everyone and got out of it scot free.

Edited by Journeyman on Nov 29th 2019 at 11:10:36 AM

Rytex Your Friend on the Other Side from Here, There, Everywhere (Ancient one) Relationship Status: Married to the music
Your Friend on the Other Side
#850: Dec 4th 2019 at 2:04:36 PM

I don't think Thrawn ever made a Heel–Face Turn. He was always a villain, but he was portrayed as being not as shitty as the rest of the Empire, and then it was later retconned into him wanting to use the Empire's resources to fight the Yuuzhan-Vong, a sentiment Palpy shared and built the Death Stars for. Neither of these were what they wanted in their first go-arounds.

Hell, Zahn even makes fun of the shilling in Hand of Thrawn, by noting that while Thrawn was a brilliant commander, he was not flawless and he was still beatable.

The powerful play goes on, and you may contribute a verse.

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