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Robbery Since: Jul, 2012
#201: Mar 23rd 2013 at 4:38:12 PM

I wonder how many character deaths have been writer decisions, and how many have been editor decisions? I know, for instance, that it was the editor of the X-Men who demanded that Jean Gray/Phoenix die at the end of the Dark Phoenix saga (both Claremont and Byrne wanted her to live).

edited 23rd Mar '13 8:27:42 PM by Robbery

Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#202: Mar 23rd 2013 at 6:05:46 PM

[up] It was an editor decision based on the fact that Jean had just wiped out a planet, and killed billions of innocent people. Anything short of death would not have been appropriate justice. She had to die, because what she had done was simply too extreme for any sort of immediate redemption.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
C0mraid from Here and there Since: Aug, 2010
#203: Mar 23rd 2013 at 6:09:43 PM

Since the 90's a lot of deaths will be a group decision.

Am I a good man or a bad man?
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#204: Mar 23rd 2013 at 6:10:47 PM

[up][up] From what I heard, it was Byrne's idea for the planet to be inhabited in the first place; Claremont's original draft just had her blow it up with no mention of inhabitants.

edited 23rd Mar '13 6:11:02 PM by HamburgerTime

C0mraid from Here and there Since: Aug, 2010
#205: Mar 23rd 2013 at 6:13:10 PM

[up] Yeah, Byrne got carried away and then Claremont followed him with his lurid description.

Am I a good man or a bad man?
Robbery Since: Jul, 2012
#206: Mar 23rd 2013 at 8:28:11 PM

[up][up][up][up] I've heard that argument, and have to side with Claremont, who pointed out that it wasn't Jean, but the Phoenix entity using Jean as a host that wiped out billions of sentient beings. So Jean had to die for what the monster controlling her did...

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#207: Mar 24th 2013 at 9:57:30 AM

I've heard conflicting stories on whether the Phoenix controls or influences its host. Pretty much any moral stance regarding a Phoenix host revolves heavily on whether or not being a Phoenix host is akin to being a slave in your own body, watching the Phoenix dangle it on puppet strings, versus whether it's similar to just being really, really intoxicated.

edited 24th Mar '13 9:57:40 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#208: Mar 24th 2013 at 10:25:27 AM

At the time those stories were written, there was no indication Phoenix was a separate entity. All the evidence, at that point, pointed to it being Jean herself. She'd lost control, but it was still her doing those things. A part of her wanted to do them, and that part of her took over.

So I still side with the editors. As written, it was Jean doing those things, and for her to get away with only a loss of her powers would be too lenient a punishment for her crimes. Death was the only way that story could end.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
C0mraid from Here and there Since: Aug, 2010
#209: Mar 24th 2013 at 10:29:55 AM

Claremont and Byrne were planning for her powers to be stripped from her and that she'd suffer some form of brain damage I think.

Also it's ambigous from the start as to what's going on. She declares herself the Phoenix without knowing what that means. Even if the Phoenix exerted no control over her she had still been messed up by the Hellfire Club.

edited 24th Mar '13 10:34:34 AM by C0mraid

Am I a good man or a bad man?
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#210: Mar 24th 2013 at 10:38:30 AM

Say, I've also heard conflicting reports about whether or not Claremont wanted her to come back eventually. In some places I've heard he did, but in other places I've heard that he wanted the female member of X-Factor to be an Original Generation character, and that it was Jean was enforced by the higher-ups. Anyone know which of these is true? Or are ther both true and Claremont wanted her back, just not in that way?

edited 24th Mar '13 10:39:02 AM by HamburgerTime

C0mraid from Here and there Since: Aug, 2010
#211: Mar 24th 2013 at 10:50:00 AM

By that point Claremont had made his peace with the fact that Jean was dead, he'd accepted he wouldn't be allowed to bring her back and moved on. There were a lot of things he disliked about X-Factor, the fact that it was a little bit of a reset button, that it meant he had no longer had control over that corner of the Marvel Universe. He didn't want Jean back from the dead, he didn't want her personality to be reset and he didn't want Cyclops to abandon his wife and son.

Edit: Also at that point the higher ups = Jim Shooter. He was the only guy above editor who knew anything about the Marvel Universe. He dominated 80s Marvel. He was took editor Jim Salicrup off the book an issue early for letting Claremont and Byrne get away with the aforementioned planet destruction.

edited 24th Mar '13 10:55:02 AM by C0mraid

Am I a good man or a bad man?
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#212: Mar 24th 2013 at 10:51:26 AM

[up] Yes, I've read several things about how dismayed he was at having to screw over poor Maddie.

C0mraid from Here and there Since: Aug, 2010
#213: Mar 24th 2013 at 10:57:34 AM

[up] I think creating her was the point where he got over Jean. He used the material that would have been Jean confronting Mastermind over what he did to her.

Am I a good man or a bad man?
Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#214: Mar 24th 2013 at 12:06:14 PM

"Claremont and Byrne were planning for her powers to be stripped from her and that she'd suffer some form of brain damage I think."

Yeah. Exactly. A pretty light sentence for genocide.

"Also it's ambigous from the start as to what's going on. She declares herself the Phoenix without knowing what that means. Even if the Phoenix exerted no control over her she had still been messed up by the Hellfire Club."

I just re-read the actual comics, over the past few weeks. It's not that ambiguous. Phoenix was Jean achieving her full potential as a psi. That's explicitly said, several times. There's absolutely no indication, at any point, of a cosmic force possessing her.

And Maddie definitely got fucked over hard when X-Factor started. Scott had his character completely derailed. It was all bullshit.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
C0mraid from Here and there Since: Aug, 2010
#215: Mar 24th 2013 at 12:09:59 PM

[up] I fail to see what punishment would be appropriate in those circumstances.

Also Claremont claims the initial idea was for Jean to be hit with cosmic rays and for that to combine with her powers. But I don't think that's how it really played out.

edited 24th Mar '13 12:13:22 PM by C0mraid

Am I a good man or a bad man?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#216: Mar 24th 2013 at 12:12:52 PM

[up] Multiple death sentences.

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Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#217: Mar 24th 2013 at 12:41:51 PM

[up] Phoenix: Endsong certainly made a bit of headway there. How long did Wolverine spend killing her over and over?

[up][up] Cosmic rays affecting her would definitely make sense. It's never really said in the comics, but it's a possibility. But it was still Jean, so she's still culpable for those deaths.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#218: Mar 24th 2013 at 12:57:36 PM

See, I don't get the whole "a character did something really evil, therefore they must be punished" thing. As long as they're neutralized as a threat, why should it matter whether they suffer or not?

I mean, yeah, we punish criminals in Real Life, but only to scare other people out of becoming criminals. Punishing a fictional character isn't going to scare anyone out of anything (not when their evil acts and their punishment are so fantastical, anyway), so why do people get so pissy about Karma Houdinis?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#219: Mar 24th 2013 at 1:08:37 PM

Because retribution. As much as our media likes to throw around the moral that vengeance doesn't make you feel any better, from personal experience, it actually does make you feel quite a bit better to know that the person who hurt you is now suffering for it.

edited 24th Mar '13 1:09:20 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#220: Mar 24th 2013 at 1:45:48 PM

I'm a bleeding heart hippie liberal. I think the focus on punishment, in the justice system, is stupid and counter-productive, and that the real focus should be on rehabilitation. I try to see the good in everyone, and look at things from their perspective.

But Jean wiped out a fucking planet.

At that point, death was the only way her story could end. Anything less would simply feel like a cop-out, and wouldn't be as compelling, and as emotionally satisfying. It'd be like catching Ted Bundy, and then punishing him by blinding him and then just sending him back out into the world. If Ted Bundy had successfully committed genocide.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
imadinosaur Since: Oct, 2011
#221: Mar 24th 2013 at 2:54:06 PM

A character dealing with the guilt of a crime on that scale & all her friends knowing what she did seems like it could be a pretty compelling storyline.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#222: Mar 24th 2013 at 3:13:50 PM

Maybe. But it's not a compelling end to a story.

And actually, the sheer scale of her crime means that no amount of guilt on her part, or discomfort on the part of her friends, would really measure up. It would never be enough. That level of guilt probably should drive someone to suicide.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#223: Mar 24th 2013 at 8:30:21 PM

Because retribution. As much as our media likes to throw around the moral that vengeance doesn't make you feel any better, from personal experience, it actually does make you feel quite a bit better to know that the person who hurt you is now suffering for it.

And you see nothing wrong with hurting someone so that you can derive pleasure from watching them suffer?

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#224: Mar 25th 2013 at 12:55:14 PM

I'd say part of the reason why people hate Karma Houdini characters is because at a certain point they get away with such heinous acts, that it is just horrid and irresponsible to let them keep living. I know the whole "Why doesn't Batman kill the Joker?" thing has been debated to death and the only real logical answer is "The Joker nets WB too much money."

But even with that knowledge, I can still see why people would be upset. Because the Joker keeps getting away with increasingly horrible acts (hell not too long ago he boasted about how he murdered a baby and then made it into a soup he force fed the father) and the readers know that no matter what, he'll never pay for his crimes.

He won't be killed, and prison won't impede his reign of terror. Two seconds after being locked up he'll just strangle another guard, steal his uniform, and be back on the streets to kill again. And that holds true for most comic villains.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#225: Mar 25th 2013 at 3:34:13 PM

[up][up] Honestly? No, nothing at all, when they've done something to deserve it. If it makes the victim feel better, then great.

Morality is situational.

edited 25th Mar '13 3:34:32 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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