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Deadlock Clock: Mar 2nd 2012 at 11:59:00 PM
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#201: Feb 17th 2012 at 6:58:35 AM

In this context, Eddie's suggestion looks like a good one, so that people store up for the "example-picking" process: At first, a new YKTTW has an laconic and a description draft and the comments for the draft. Then, we get a blank crowner for a name and relevant comments. When that crowner is called, the draft gets a title and example-seeking starts (and is allowed, anything like that earlier should be thumped).

About "It is determined that the draft is ready to be named. Not sure how that is determined, right now." - some kind of crowner-requesting system, like the hats?

Adding a history for the YKTTW makes a lot of sense, as well as making YKTTW a bit more forum-ey.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#202: Feb 17th 2012 at 7:00:37 AM

I'm all for [up]. I think it's a step up to solve problems.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
LMage Since: May, 2011
#203: Feb 17th 2012 at 7:16:46 AM

-Thread Hop in-

Not happy about missing this thus far, I need to read the thread lists more.

Anyway: I personally like the current format of YKTTW, it's open, it's easy to understand, it's accessible, it doesn't feel detached from the main wiki or "elite". All that moving it to the forums will accomplish will be strengthening the feel of a non-existent barrier between "elite" troopers and the rest of us. The last thing we need to do is take steps that make it feel like we are concentrating the power over the wiki.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#204: Feb 17th 2012 at 7:29:25 AM

[up] We're not moving YKTTW completely to the forums. Read Eddie's post here.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#205: Feb 17th 2012 at 7:58:14 AM

@192:

Part of the reason why YKTTW is an example magnet is because people read the title, laconic, or description, and it automatically reminds them of something they've seen in some sort of media they consumed. Having to think about actual issues with the trope itself is much harder.
Sometimes I think that's an inherent part of the system, even down to the name YKTTW. "You know? That thing where in X that Y happened. A similar thing happened in Z. And W!"

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
SKJAM Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#206: Feb 17th 2012 at 8:10:42 AM

I have to admit that restricting example suggestions to "only during the final stage" would reduce my participation drastically—often I have nothing useful to say about the title or definition that hasn't already been said, so would not be bumping those, and then miss the window for examples.

I've seen "bad examples" being much less of a problem than drive-by "People Sit On Chairs" cut-and-paste, myself.

lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#207: Feb 17th 2012 at 8:15:59 AM

It's not so much bad examples, as it is people seeing a bad description and still giving out examples to basically a laconic and a title. A trope can't be built on examples alone without a description. Courtesy link. (I've made this YKTTW famous by now.)

Separating the process should stop drafts without a proper description getting through.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Westrim deep in though- ow! from The land of hoodoos Since: Jan, 2001
deep in though- ow!
#208: Feb 17th 2012 at 9:39:43 AM

@ Post 200 by Marq That's not evidence that the examples inhibit or derail discussion, just that they aren't discussion, and they're much easier to write than feedback.

My gut feeling is that if we did have a phase where only feedback was allowed is that most of it would consist of "I like/don't like it" or screaming "this is x trope", and that would get frustrating very quickly as one tries to drag out 'why' the other troper feels that way.

I am very against making YKTTW any more like a forum. YKTTWs are tropes in formation and should resemble the final product. Then there's the social issues involved that have been mentioned like overtones of an elite group of tropers making decisions amongst themselves that effect everyone and minimizing outside input. I already get that vibe, which is why I nearly totally avoid the forums.

edited 17th Feb '12 9:42:28 AM by Westrim

I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#209: Feb 17th 2012 at 9:42:48 AM

"I like/I don't like it" - never seen in any YKTTW I've ever looked at (and I am not sure if it would be permitted rules-wise, since it doesn't add anything to the discussion in question), and this is trope x is actually good at times - Yes We DO Have This One.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#210: Feb 17th 2012 at 9:52:13 AM

I have to agree that example collection should run parallel to at least the name finding. There's no reason to hold it off until last if we can find a way to do it without disrupting the conversation - and the way to do it currently is to have them edit it into the draft.

As has been said by many others, the more pages a trope can be wicked on initially, the better it will grow in the long run.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
TiggersAreGreat Since: Mar, 2011
#211: Feb 17th 2012 at 10:14:35 AM

I can also say that I have launched a couple of YKTT Ws myself, and the launching part has proven to be difficult.

Why? Because some of the steps in launching a YKTTW are so vague and cryptic that I have ended up missing some of them!

It would be a great improvement if there was a tutorial, or if the steps were more detailed! grin

edited 17th Feb '12 10:15:21 AM by TiggersAreGreat

Oh, Equestria, we stand on guard for thee!
Westrim deep in though- ow! from The land of hoodoos Since: Jan, 2001
deep in though- ow!
#212: Feb 17th 2012 at 10:16:34 AM

[up][up][up] I've seen variations of it, but never that wording itself. This Is Trope X is, in my experience, often used as a crutch — "it sounds like this trope so I'll write it down and leave." Moreover, even if they do have a valid point and the YKTTW needs to be deleted or rewritten to make the difference clear, no one else knows specifically what that point is and have to guess at the conflict.

The standard use of bold text makes it feel more antagonistic; I'm aware of the reasoning that it makes the link stand out, but it's already the only thing in a comment, and nearly everywhere else on the internet bold text (that isn't a title to a larger piece) is the equivalent of yelling. So from the perspective of the YKTTW creator and perhaps other commenters, someone has just walked by, shouted a trope name without context, and kept walking. Random Passerby Advice at its worst. Now to be clear, they often have a point and the YKTTW needs editing for clarity or deletion, but finding out what needs editing (and what it should be edited to) is much harder without context.

edited 17th Feb '12 10:26:17 AM by Westrim

I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#213: Feb 17th 2012 at 10:26:59 AM

^ Yes. In fact, I already brought this up. If you're going to say we have this already, you need to give more than just a link to the trope, even if you think the duplication is blindingly obvious. The bad habit of simply leaving a trope name in bold has got to go.

One, not everyone knows the YKTTW speak. A newbie is not going to know why someone has just stopped by and "shouted" a trope name at them. They may misunderstand the intention or disregard it altogether.

Two, you need to explain why they're the same trope. It may be obvious to you, but it may not be obvious to everyone. You might even *gasp* be wrong, or misunderstanding the trope or the YKTTW draft. If they're similar but distinct enough to be troped separately, we need to know how they're similar so we can tweak the description(s).

Three, forcing them to defend the position means they'll actually have to read the trope and hopefully the draft. More times than I can count I've had someone drop Trope Name Is The Same in my YKTTW and have it turn out they were assuming meaning from the trope title, YKTTW title, or both. I shouldn't have to waste my time disproving this when they haven't taken the time to have even a basic understanding of either.

edited 17th Feb '12 10:34:59 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
FrodoGoofballCoTV from Colorado, USA Since: Jan, 2001
#214: Feb 17th 2012 at 10:58:20 AM

Sorry for coming to this late, but I've been mulling this over. Personally, my main concern with YKTTW is that it's just a chaotic mess. When you've got nearly 5000 entries, it's likely half or more may never be launched or discarded, having been effectively lost in the chaos, and for the others, people who are trying to help are jumping from one to another without really focusing on what needs to be done.

So I had a couple of thoughts:

  • I think it makes sense to not worry so much about the name, long description, and getting 12 - 20+ examples until there's consensus that the basic description is OK.
  • Some tropes may not need more than a laconic to really define the trope but for others that may not be enough. Which is why I'd support allowing a single paragraph and a few examples to clarify what you're talking about, especially for tropes that are genre specific.
  • I'm wondering if it would make sense to split YKTTW up, but not necessarily completely: for example, if I could go to some sort of YKTTW "home page" and click a menu button somewhere and see only YKTTW's that were in the naming process, then I would think to myself, "for these, just focus on helping people choose the name, don't add examples." I don't know about everyone else, but I think that would be the biggest help for me to adjust my behavior to meet the new goals.
  • Perhaps it's not yet time to discuss this, but one thought we'll have to keep in mind for later is, "How are we going to transition existing YKTTW's to the new system?"

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#215: Feb 17th 2012 at 11:09:55 AM

It's probably better to wait until we have decided what to do with YKTTW before we think about implementing it.

Alas, I derive a few ideas:

  1. The first YKTTW draft should have a Laconic and a description, and get comments about the idea (but bold one-word trope comments should be thumped; they don't add anything for an average person).
  2. After some time-lag, it should be possible to give a "Title search hat" or something like that, and when it has collected enough, auto-hook a blank alt-titles crowner. At this time, name-seeking and example-seeking should become possible.
  3. When that crowner gets called, the actual hat-giving can start and the launching function as we have it in the current YKTTW system should be enabled, maybe with a further time lag (and the discard might also be disabled once the crowner gets called)

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Nocturna Since: May, 2011
#216: Feb 17th 2012 at 11:12:42 AM

[up][up][up] I agree that a trope name in bold by itself is bad. I do sometimes use the bold, but I always provide textual context (i.e. "I think this is already covered by This Trope").

I'm not sure that saying that you think something is the same trope really needs more explanation, though. If you think it's the same trope, then you think that every point in the YKTTW is covered within the existing trope. The only way to explain that would be to summarize both tropes, which seems kinda pointless to me.

The burden really is on the sponsor to explain how their proposed trope is different from existing tropes. If someone thinks that the YKTTW is the same as an existing trope, then the sponsor needs to articulate the difference (unless it really is a case of someone not paying any attention to the description, but that's a different problem). If there really is a difference, the description should be tweaked to note the difference.

If you think a current trope overlaps with (but does not completely cover) the YKTTW, then yes, you ought to explain which sections you see as overlapping and why.

[up] #3: I don't think the current hat system would be necessary. If the description has passed muster, it has an acceptable title, and there are at least 10 examples (or whatever number is decided on—ten is the minimum I like to see before I'll give a hat in the current system), it should be automatically eligible for launch. It doesn't need approval beyond that.

edited 17th Feb '12 11:18:48 AM by Nocturna

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#217: Feb 17th 2012 at 11:21:22 AM

Makes sense, Nocturna - if the trope can get a name, it should be already almost-launchworthy. However, I'd say that the crowner-hooking should be auto-triggered by a hat system. And even after the crowner is called, there should be a time lag until launching is possible so as to allow enough examples to build up. My main worry is how to deal with Too Rare To Trope stuff.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#218: Feb 17th 2012 at 12:35:00 PM

^^ True, "this trope seems very similar to That Trope, could you elaborate the difference" is much, much better, but I get a lot of times when someone claims they are the same and they're not remotely similar.

Take, for example, the YKTTW for Signs of the End Times. Someone, in total seriousness, tried to tell me it was the same trope as Sign of the Apocalypse.

Another thing we need to consider is where in the process index suggestions come in. Even someone experienced can miss an index or two. Newbies are often clueless about it, however, and I've had to walk several through the process of finding indices and indexing new tropes.

edited 17th Feb '12 12:35:19 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
SKJAM Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#219: Feb 17th 2012 at 12:40:05 PM

@lu 127: I was amused to discover that was one of the discussions I hadn't clicked on before...because I couldn't think of any examples that weren't so obvious someone wouldn't have already posted them.

If I get some time this weekend, I'll see about going to the very bottom of the YKTTW list and seeing if there's anything I want to help revive/discard.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#220: Feb 17th 2012 at 12:42:56 PM

[up] I think indexing should start already in the pre-crowner, draft-and-laconic-only, description-tweaking phase.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Westrim deep in though- ow! from The land of hoodoos Since: Jan, 2001
deep in though- ow!
#221: Feb 17th 2012 at 12:48:42 PM

Example of Troper stratification; I've been poking around this wiki for 4 years and still have no idea what a crowner is. I've searched for it a few times, but never found a definition, and I can't figure out what it means from context. And I've only seen the term in the forum, never on a regular wiki page (not even Administrivia and such). So I'm asking formally; what the heck is a crowner? "Auto-hook a blank alt-titles crowner" isn't even Greek, it's Tagalog to me.

All this talk of multiple phases like one for titles, one for examples, and so on is likely to just hopelessly muddle the process. Few are going to want to watch every step, or wait to make their contributing until the correct step. This isn't a factory, it's art.

I remembered I actually made a YKTTW about only posting a trope, but gave up on it. Here it is.

Other stuff I want to say, but I need to get on with my day.

edited 17th Feb '12 12:51:37 PM by Westrim

I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
AlexSora89 Myself, as drawn by me. from Piedmont, Italy Since: Oct, 2010
Myself, as drawn by me.
#222: Feb 17th 2012 at 12:54:42 PM

For once, I would be fine with a change.

However, if it's possible, I'd prefer the change not to turn YKTTW into a Scrappy Mechanic, as it usually happens with whole-site-wide changes such as this.

If there's a link in the "tools" top-left menu, and if the archived YKTTW (such as the one I'm trying to launch, "Level Diorama Preview") are moved there, I'd be fine with the change and openly approve it.

The first of my "conditions" (so to speak, obviously) is something that's basically needed for the new YKTTW system to work because, as I always say, the site's forums are hard to browse (to me at least). I posted the second request, instead, because there's quite a number of YKTTW I've written so far, and some of them (such as the aforementioned LDP) are actual tropes, and they're objective, and as such I'd prefer them not to be Lost Forever.

I'd like to know if my requests are perceived as something reasonable and possible to accomplished or as just another useless complaint, so let me know (read: reply to this post).

edited 17th Feb '12 1:06:09 PM by AlexSora89

I'm from Piedmont. No relation with Piedmon, mind you!
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#223: Feb 17th 2012 at 1:10:12 PM

An additional suggestion, in the case the split proposed here or here are done, would be to split YKTTW into three parts: An actual YKTTW for the Draft and Name-giving parts, an Example-gathering forum (or YKTTW) for the part after the crowner closure and before the launch, and a Morgue for launched or discarded suggestions. Especially the first split should be considered as it needs two very different comment-replies.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Nocturna Since: May, 2011
#224: Feb 17th 2012 at 1:12:18 PM

[up][up][up] Crowners are the voting system for this site. A crowner has a section for explaining what's being voted on and a section in which options can be added and voted on.

There're different types which work in slightly different ways: alternate title (alt title) crowners have a predefined message in the section explaining the issue, single proposition (single prop) crowners only allow one option, and page action and Image Pickin' (IP) crowners have neither of those restrictions.

The best way to get a feel what what crowners look like would be to go to either TRS or IP, find a thread with a star medal symbol next to it (meaning there's a crowner hooked to the thread), click on it and scroll to the bottom, which is where the crowner is. The arrows next to each option are for voting.

edited 17th Feb '12 1:14:17 PM by Nocturna

AlexSora89 Myself, as drawn by me. from Piedmont, Italy Since: Oct, 2010
Myself, as drawn by me.
#225: Feb 17th 2012 at 1:19:49 PM

@ Septimus Heap:

I dunno, really - the example-gathering forum is a really good idea, honestly, but the problem is that it's split from the proper YKTTW. That'd be one of the things that would turn the change into a Scrappy Mechanic, as I said before.

Now, if only the subforum was included as a part of the YK—

NO NO NO NO NO NO WAIT! I GOT IT!!!

What about a "example suggestion" text-box-like thing below the YKTTW draft? That'd be AWESOME!

Sorry for goin' Hot-Blooded so suddenly.

I'm from Piedmont. No relation with Piedmon, mind you!

PageAction: YKTTW
21st Feb '12 2:46:37 PM

Crown Description:

Issues with current YKTTW setup:
  • YKTTW is often overly-concerned with example-finding as opposed to description-drafting
  • There is a backlog in the current YKTTW system.
  • There isn't enough quality control over what comes out of YKTTW, leading to more work fixing them later.

These are the solution proposals for YKTTW. Please note that they are not mutually exclusive.

Total posts: 782
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