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TRS Policy: Threads suggesting a rename without evidence

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Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#101: Feb 13th 2012 at 12:54:19 PM

I just want an example of that happening besides Nightmare Fuel, because that's due to clear and rampant misuse, not just somebody having a personal vendetta against the not-trope.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
KaiserMazoku Since: Apr, 2011
#102: Feb 13th 2012 at 2:25:45 PM

So just to be clear, the new policy overrides the policy against "The [character]" titled tropes?

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#103: Feb 13th 2012 at 2:33:48 PM

No, it requires you have more than "this is a character titles trope" for pages that have good wiks and good inbounds. You need to actually make a real renaming argument.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
KaiserMazoku Since: Apr, 2011
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#105: Feb 13th 2012 at 2:50:48 PM

How does this affect newly-launched YKTT Ws?

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#106: Feb 13th 2012 at 2:56:31 PM

Not at all.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#107: Feb 13th 2012 at 3:02:59 PM

So if someone launched a trope called The Will Smith...

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#108: Feb 13th 2012 at 3:12:05 PM

Then you could give a fully fleshed out argument for why it should be renamed rather than just going "This is a character named trope. Here are some name suggestions."

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#109: Feb 13th 2012 at 3:16:44 PM

But it's a launched YKTTW. What evidence is there going to be against it?

For the record, I'm not arguing AGAINST the policy. I'm just pointing out something that's bound to happen.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#110: Feb 13th 2012 at 3:19:25 PM

There's the fact that it's newly launched and thus it's easy to fix it to be compliant with policy before the name is well established. There are lots of arguments to be made. You just need to make them in the OP not wait for someone else to make them.

edited 13th Feb '12 3:20:17 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#111: Feb 13th 2012 at 3:28:52 PM

We know that in most cases a character-named trope doesn't do well, so we can catch it before it breaks down.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#112: Feb 13th 2012 at 3:31:30 PM

So wouldn't that be a self-evident argument, then?


Thread Title
Named after a character/person. Not indicative: The Will Smith

OP Post
This trope is named after a character/person, which doesn't work. We should rename it.


Would the above be sufficient?

edited 13th Feb '12 3:32:17 PM by KingZeal

troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#113: Feb 13th 2012 at 3:48:28 PM

So just to be clear, the new policy overrides the policy against "The [character]" titled tropes?
To be clear, the current policy about character-named tropes is "Don't do it." We've never had a policy that says "Rename them." That would be a very different thing. "This trope is named after a character" is not and never has been a sufficient reason to rename a trope.

So no, that [up] is not sufficient.

edited 13th Feb '12 3:49:18 PM by troacctid

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#114: Feb 13th 2012 at 3:55:07 PM

Right. But Fast Eddie himself just said, we can "catch it before it breaks down". So, I'm confused.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#115: Feb 13th 2012 at 3:56:10 PM

Relevant passages from Renaming Guidelines:

  • Character-Named Tropes used to be standard, but are now deprecated and considered a form of Fan Myopia. Very few characters are iconic enough to truly personify a trope, and these are generally in the dictionary (e.g. Pollyanna); using anyone else risks Pop-Cultural Osmosis Failure. Consider whether there are other fictional characters by that name, whether the character may have other aspects, and how old the work is that the character is from.

    This is really a subset of the "unclear" issue outlined earlier. As before, explain how naming this trope after the character is unclear, and be prepared to provide substantial evidence (such as a Wick Check). While a common issue, this isn't automatically a warrant to rename.
  • If a trope was launched prematurely from YKTTW before consensus was reached about a title and a description, it should probably get sent right back.

It should be rather easy to prove the "other fictional characters by that name", "whether the character may have other aspects", and "how old the work is that the character is from" reasons for the Character-Title being bad in most premature-launch cases. You just have to make the effort to explain them.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#116: Feb 13th 2012 at 3:56:53 PM

[up][up]If I'm understanding Eddie correctly, in a YTTKW launch, yes, it's sufficient argument.

In a TRS rename thread, not so much.

edited 13th Feb '12 3:57:05 PM by Martello

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#117: Feb 13th 2012 at 4:00:04 PM

Yes, a better argument would be "This is a character named trope fresh out of TRS. Let's fix this before it spreads." Not just "This is a character named trope." Do you see the difference?

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#118: Feb 13th 2012 at 4:00:52 PM

As usual, Shima has to come along and explain it better than I did.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#119: Feb 13th 2012 at 4:07:08 PM

So what I'm asking is for us to get an official policy on this in writing, and not reliant upon a cross-examination of existent rules.

If a trope that's already named after a character is not sufficient enough of an argument on its own, then how old should the trope be? Twenty days? Two months? A year?

If a YKTTW comes out of the gates with a character name with a number of examples and wicks, does that make it fair game for rename? What if it comes out of the YKTTW with 50 examples and twice as many wicks? (Yes, unlikely, but possible.)

troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#120: Feb 13th 2012 at 4:07:11 PM

"This trope is named after a character/person, which doesn't work. We should rename it." is not going to count unless you can show that there's some additional problem with it.

A premature launch is an additional problem. And presumably it will have a low inbound count as well; that also counts.

The lower the inbound count, the less we care about keeping the current name. If the inbounds are low, you can argue for underuse—this is listed as another of the reasons to rename.

edited 13th Feb '12 4:09:17 PM by troacctid

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#121: Feb 13th 2012 at 4:34:52 PM

You know, we could benefit from some sort of "YKTTW Launch Watch" where tropers volunteer to keep tabs on new launches periodically and catch them if they are clearly prematurely launched.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#122: Feb 13th 2012 at 4:41:55 PM

Or we could just make YTTKW part of the forums. Like I'm suggesting in a thread I just started here on Wiki Talk.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
Osmium from Germany Since: Dec, 2010
#123: Feb 13th 2012 at 6:18:06 PM

Right now we have the guideline that after a TRS thread is over we have to wait for some time before opening a new thread concerning this trope is allowed. Normally this is OK, after fixing a page we should wait how this worked out before changing something again.

But now it is possible that a discussion is locked, because the OP failed to proof misuse but the trope is in fact broken. Is it allowed to open a new thread on this topic, or do we have to wait for a certain time before doing this?

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#124: Feb 13th 2012 at 6:19:43 PM

If it's locked for a bad OP you can open a new one as long as you have a fleshed out OP instead.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Spark9 Since: Nov, 2010
#125: Feb 14th 2012 at 6:17:34 AM

The main issue I see here, which is something that already happens, is when a thread is opened with some evidence, and the first response is "that's not enough evidence, lock the thread now". That doesn't strike me as a healthy response.

It's important to note that misuse isn't the only reason for renaming, even if a vocal minority says so.


Total posts: 133
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