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The Constructive Criticism Thread

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Please read the rules below before posting. We're taking turns to post text, and text posted out of turn will be hollered.

The discussion over at the "Is being Troperiffic a Bad Thing?" thread got a few of us seriously talking about starting a full-fledged, free for all dedicated ConCrit thread. Thanks go to your friendly neighborhood Herald, chihuahua0, for giving this the go-ahead smile

This is how it's going to work:

  • This thread is for helping people improve as writers. Please stay away from needlessly gushing or needlessly being mean when handing out criticism.
  • No mentioning your own work when giving out criticism. This is to prevent "Let's talk about ME" derails.
  • Feedback will be given to one person at a time. We're taking a deliberately slow pace; a person's turn to get feedback is generally supposed to last a week, but we're not ending someone's turn until they get feedback from at least five different people. On the other hand, the person getting feedback can end their own turn if they figure they're done.
  • When a turn ends, we wait 12 hours to see if anyone of the people who have just given feedback wants to be up next. If they don't, we pick the person up next from the feedback request list.
  • Yes, it's okay to point out spelling and grammar errors made by the person you're giving feedback to.
  • If you're unfamiliar with the original verse of a piece of Fan Fiction up for feedback, pretend it's a piece of original fiction and criticize accordingly.
  • If and when you step up to receive feedback:
    • Post actual writing (not world-building, concepts, layouts, character lists and so on).
    • Be specific in what you are looking for, or at least mention what is troubling you the most.
    • Fan Fiction is fine, but take into account that anyone not familiar with the source material will judge your piece "blind", essentially by the same standards as original fiction. This means you might get called out on flaws that fan fiction usually gets away with in practice, perhaps even justifiably so. Just like any other kind of criticism, consider it or ignore at at your discretion.
    • Be ready to hear some things you probably didn't want to hear. This should go without saying, but, please: No being bitter, being sarcastic, calling people out for "going too far" or otherwise expressing disapproval of the criticism given to you. If you think people are being unfair to your writing, make your case civilly.

With that said, I suppose we can begin and see whether this goes anywhere. The first person to respond with a post to the extent of "I'll go first" will go first.

edited 17th Feb '12 5:07:01 PM by TripleElation

TheLovecraftian Since: Jul, 2017
#1726: Apr 14th 2020 at 5:54:36 PM

Then I'll work out how to do that and report back here.

ChicoTheParakeet Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#1727: Apr 16th 2020 at 7:11:38 PM

(ignore this post)

Edited by ChicoTheParakeet on Apr 16th 2020 at 10:25:16 AM

CrystalGlacia from at least we're not detroit (Living Relic)
#1728: Apr 16th 2020 at 7:17:44 PM

This thread is for critiquing actual writing and uses a waitlist. Questions not related to the function of this thread or whatever piece of work is currently up for critique on the waitlist belong in either Random Questions, General Writer's Block, Writer's Block Daily, or, for more extensive queries, a new thread.

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth."
ChicoTheParakeet Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#1729: Apr 16th 2020 at 7:22:39 PM

I'm so sorry. I should have known better.

AdeptGaderius Otaku from the Anime World Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Otaku
#1731: Apr 25th 2020 at 4:03:39 PM

[up] You should place it at the feedback request list.

And for ~De Marquis: When will the Constructive Criticism for Anissa be posted?

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1732: Apr 25th 2020 at 5:34:15 PM

@Anissa:

I generally discourage people from using first person point of view in fiction, but you seem to have a decent command of it. It's an appropriate choice for depicting the ugly reality of sexual abuse from the perspective of a young girl. As when I reviewed this work the first time, you handle this topic with sensitivity and an appropriate level of dramatic impact.

I don't like the opening dialogue. It's repetitive, also the tense isn't consistent throughout the paragraph—it's "can't" (present tense) in the first sentences and then "was tucked" (past tense) in the rest. Since most of the rest of the scene is past tense, I would delete the first two sentences and just start with the cold opening, changing "have to keep an eye on..." to "was keeping an eye on...". It will be jarring and confusing to the reader at first, but that accurately reflects the mental state of the protagonist, and all becomes clear very quickly. Present tense does have a more immediate, visceral impact on the reader, but if you want to preserve that, then you would have to change the tense of every verb in the entire scene to be consistent.

"I could hide in the closet, but he would find me there. I could hide in the toybox, but he would find me there." Again, repetitive. Unless you want to go for a fairy tale-like non-realistic tone, you should change the second sentence slightly "find me there also" or something like that.

"I wanted to assure myself..." As when I reviewed this piece before, the same critical feedback still applies: this just doesn't sound like a 12 year old girl to me. Unless this is an adult narrator telling us about the past, you should stick to a more common vocabulary whenever possible. "I wanted to feel better" or "I felt bad, so I..." is more consistent with the age of the protagonist. Here's another example: "How many minutes should I vigil until I can safely fall asleep?" Later on, she mentions "the aberration." I'm a full grown adult, and I have never heard anyone express themselves that formally.

Now, if you are using her vocabulary to make her seem unusual for a 12 year old, well and good, but you should probably put in some foreshadowing or clue for the reader. If she's super intelligent, then describe her room and include some things like high school textbooks next to a unicorn stuffy, or something similar. On the other hand, if you want the average reader to identify with her, then leave the description as is, but modify her vocabulary.

Now, I went back and forth in my mind regarding your lack of description of the setting. One the one hand, I almost always advise to begin a scene with at least a cursory description of where it is happening. It's a simple and useful device to help the reader understand the tone and theme of the story. However, in this case a description of the setting takes us out of her head, which undermines the ugly, gut-level impact of what is about to happen. The reader shouldn't be given very many details, because the girl is very likely filtering out these details herself.

I don't like the opening of the dream sequence, and by now you know why. "I woke up in some kind of kiddie show set. I rose up, looked around my new surroundings as I dropped off from my bed. Colorful, gaudy and cheery backgrounds and setpieces dotted the locale, as if it were constructed from cardboard and cheap paint sets."

Not only does this not sound like a 12 year old, but it's telling not showing. It would be much more effective to describe exactly what she sees. You may have to do some research on TV shows for young children. You need something friendly and reassuring, and aimed at the age at which she still had her mother around (6-8?). It needn't be (and shouldn't be) any one specific show, but an amalgamation of all of them: the walls are bright yellow, the table is above her head, couches are huge and fluffy, that kind of thing.

"I smelled strawberries" I have a 13 year old daughter, and one thing I notice about her thought process is that she never describes anything as like another thing—everything is what it is, full stop. Nothing is the color of an orange—it is orange; nothing flows like the wind—it just goes fast. Everything is immediate and totally present (actually, she's starting to change now to a more mature way of thinking, but the impact of your story is much stronger if your protagonist seems more innocent and naive, so I would keep it the way I've just described it). Another rule of thumb is limiting her dialogue to one adjective or adverb per noun or verb. "I saw a tall, red headed woman with unfurled, luscious plum red hair" should be more like "I saw a beautiful woman with red hair." Your protagonist will seem more real and more relatable if you keep her simple.

Well, I'm not going to go over the entire dream sequence paragraph by paragraph—I think you get the idea. Overall the sequence gets it's point across: she's fantasizing a safer place where she can receive the non-judgmental affection she needs from an idealized parent. I presume the purpose is to contrast with the rather ugly abuse scene that follows it. If so, the contrast works. But if you accept the feedback on your writing style that I have offered so far, well I guess I just told you to go over the dialogue and rewrite the entire thing. This also applies to any other scene in which she is the narrator. Sorry!

The abuse scene—there's nothing much to say that I haven't already said. It's a very realistic depiction of something that traumatizing and evil. It's hard to write a scene like this effectively, but I think you handled it well. You got the point across without either moralizing it, or indulging in trauma-porn. Well done.

The next morning scene suffers from the same stylistic weaknesses that the opening scene did. Otherwise, it works well to introduce a surrealistic element into the description, which effectively foreshadows the magical realism that will occur later.

I'm not sure the truck scene is necessary—what does it add that the previous scenes didn't already cover? We all know it's the father, and we don't really need to see him until he confronts the principle. Consider deleting it.

Then we have the classroom, which is also well done. Using a video on puberty is just the right way to illustrate the problems she is having coping with her repressed anxiety. It's realistic and elevates the dramatic tension.

Just like the last time, I really don't like the way the principle is depicted. He's too over-the-top, a cartoon villain who attains a level of incompetence and petty dictatorial cluelessness that just undermines the narrative. Don't make the principle incompetent, make the father very charismatic and plausible. the principle should be level-headed and supportive, like anyone trained in child education would be, but he gets bamboozled by the father. The principle doesn't need to express anger or any emotion, he just needs to describe what Anissa is doing in the classroom, and the father just has to come up with a plausible explanation which will mollify and deceive the principle (which he already does).

I mean think about it—a parent who is suspected of abusing a child isn't given warnings or second chances—it's a very serious crime which must be reported to the police immediately. The principle himself faces serious consequences if he doesn't. So this possibility must never arise—her behavior is the result of her mother's sudden death, and nothing else. No one gets angry or frustrated with a pre-teen who is morning her mother's recent death, but if her behavior is dangerous to the other students she will be removed from the classroom, and she will receive some form of theraputic counseling. this isn't her fault, it's just something that has to be done. As long as the father is not suspected of anything, the rest of your story can proceed as you have written it. Does all this make sense?

I guess that's enough for now. Overall, I like the story. It's engaging and well-told. Clean up the protagonist's dialogue, add in some character development for the principle, and I would consider getting it published.

Hope that helps.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
AdeptGaderius Otaku from the Anime World Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Otaku
#1733: Apr 26th 2020 at 1:03:42 AM

[up] Honestly, I don't know how to make principal level-headed and supportive as you say. Can you give me a basic outline on what should a realistic conversation between Anissa's dad and the school principal play out?

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1734: Apr 26th 2020 at 11:33:58 AM

You will have to master a certain degree of professional detachment. The job of a principle is to make sure that administrative procedures are followed. They will be very polite, act diplomatically, but will also make it clear that rules and regulations must be followed, and that if certain things happen, then other things must follow. For example, if a teacher determines that a student is acting in a way that is unsafe for herself or the other students, then she must be removed from that classroom. Since public schools must find a way to accommodate all students, they would then place her in a special room for "problem students." The parent must be informed, but they don't really get any input. Think a bureaucrat trying to avoid a scene:

"I'm sorry Mr. X, but we have determined that it is in the best interest of your child that she be referred to our 'Special Needs' facility. I'm sure you understand. Now, I have to ask a few questions. How do you and Anissa get along at home?"

That sort of thing. Having been the parent in just this sort of conversation, I can tell you it's extremely dehumanizing and frustrating, but administrators are trained to deal with angry parents, and specifically to never get caught up in an argument.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
TheLovecraftian Since: Jul, 2017
#1735: May 25th 2020 at 6:37:40 PM

I've added a short story of mine to the bottom of the list.

eagleoftheninth Shop all day, greed is free from a dreamed portrait, imperfect Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Shop all day, greed is free
#1736: Jun 17th 2020 at 8:38:31 AM

Whose turn is it? Just checking.

One day, we will read his name in the news and cheer.
DiscworldFan Since: Nov, 2019
#1737: Jun 17th 2020 at 8:32:34 PM

I have some ideas that I would like some constructive criticism on, if that's all right.

Edited by DiscworldFan on Jun 17th 2020 at 8:36:36 AM

CrystalGlacia from at least we're not detroit (Living Relic)
#1738: Jun 18th 2020 at 5:07:10 AM

Please read the post pinned to the top of this thread. This thread is for critiquing actual written pieces of creative writing, because that part is what hypothetical audiences will be seeing. It is not for critiquing ideas, concepts, blurbs, summaries, outlines, character sheets, worldbuilding notes, or other pieces of the creative writing process that are not the work itself, because those things being good by themselves does not necessarily indicate that they will produce a good overall work.

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth."
DiscworldFan Since: Nov, 2019
#1739: Jun 18th 2020 at 7:03:37 PM

First off, I'd like to apologize over my first post on this thread. I did so without reading the rules, and I'm sorry.

Second of all, I'm kind of confused on how the turn system works, and how you put up a piece of writing for critiquing.

DiscworldFan Since: Nov, 2019
#1740: Jun 18th 2020 at 7:05:15 PM

Never mind, I think I got it.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1741: Jun 19th 2020 at 4:36:12 PM

Is it time to move on from Anissa?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#1742: Jun 22nd 2020 at 8:20:04 AM

I guess so. I was thinking of taking away my story anyway, you can move to the next one. I apologize for not doing my job properly, as I did read part of Annisa but things happened and forgot to read it properly. I'm sorry.

Edited by Tomodachi on Jun 22nd 2020 at 8:28:26 AM

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
AppleChild Fruit from The Apple Tree Over There Since: Apr, 2020 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Fruit
#1743: Jul 4th 2020 at 11:23:01 PM

Hi.

Not sure if this is the right thread for this, or even if it's an issue gonna be honest, my apologies.

An online friend has criticized some of my characters in my story for being in a polygamous relationship together. Not anything to do with how their relationship goes, just the fact they're three girlfriends all dating each other.

Is there something wrong with it? Like an inherent red flag in that? Is there anything I can do to make it better?

I'm not sure if I'm even making a mistake in writing a poly couple, so apologies if I'm completely fine.

CLUNK! (he died.)
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#1744: Jul 5th 2020 at 12:34:36 AM

I'd ask what exactly they are criticizing, although I can't say that the critique you got sounds promising...

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#1745: Jul 5th 2020 at 4:06:43 AM

[up][up] This particular thread has certain rules, I believe (see the pinned section at the top of the thread). Perhaps this question might have been better-suited to either the "Random Questions" thread (if you think that it is likely to have a quick and straightforward answer, with little discussion) or a thread of its own (if you think that it's likely to be less quick or straightforward).

That said, I might suggest asking your friend (if you haven't already) what it is, specifically, that they see as problematic in the relationship. (And if they answer something to the effect of "that it's polygamous", further ask what about that trait they find problematic.)

My Games and Asset Packs
AwSamWeston Fantasy writer turned Filmmaker. from Minnesota Nice (Elder Troper) Relationship Status: Married to the job
Fantasy writer turned Filmmaker.
#1746: Jul 5th 2020 at 1:31:31 PM

As (healthy) polyamory becomes more accepted in our culture, there will be pushback. It's up to you as the writer to decide how strongly you feel about including this in your narrative. Does it help to explain who these characters are as people? Does it add dimension to their interpersonal dynamics?

People used to shun the idea of interracial couples back in the 60s and 70s, and LGBT couples in the 80s and 90s, but both of those have become accepted and praised now. On the flip side, there was a time when audiences were okay with grown men marrying teenage girls, so you'll have to figure out if this is something you want to see normalized.

I don't know, I lean a little more "aromantic" personally so I can really only comment on this through the lens of writing mechanics and historical trends in our own world.

If you think it enhances these characters to have them in a polyamorous relationship instead of just being extremely close friends, and if you're willing to accept that some readers will push back, then I say go for it.

Actual Filmmaker trying to earn a Creator page. Gleahan and the Knaves of Industry β€” available now on streaming and blu-ray.
AppleChild Fruit from The Apple Tree Over There Since: Apr, 2020 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Fruit
#1747: Jul 5th 2020 at 2:35:26 PM

Ah, okay! All this helped a lot.

I did ask why he didn't like it and it turns out he just doesn't like poly people. Yikes!

Next time I'll make sure to ask in the right thread, but thanks a lot.

CLUNK! (he died.)
ChicoTheParakeet Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#1748: Jul 20th 2020 at 9:12:10 PM

(ignore this post)

I did this again...

Edited by ChicoTheParakeet on Jul 20th 2020 at 12:20:46 PM

TheWhistleTropes janet likes her new icon. Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
janet likes her new icon.
#1749: Oct 7th 2020 at 7:27:34 PM

What do you think of this scene? Is it tense? Does it create character conflict? Does Autumn seem like a protagonist or more of a side character?

    Scene in folder 
.BY THE TRAPPING TREE

Liz is three quarters of the way up.

Autumn is laying down, shoes off, legs fully extended. Katie is sitting cross-legged, meditating. Jake is talking in Alfeme with Eco.

Autumn lifts her left hand up, just offscreen. Looks worried. Rolls over. Rests the hand on Katie's knee.

Katie opens her eyes slowly, looks at the hand. Closes her eyes again.

Does a double-take.

She takes the hand in her wing. Inspects it. Rubs her wing on it. Autumn winces.

KATIE
Oh my lord...

The crystal is growing on Autumn's palm, her middle finger almost-completely eaten.

AUTUMN
I, I know, I just...

KATIE
It's fine. Just, make sure not to shatter anything.

Katie gets up and looks at Liz.

KATIE
(shouting)
Liz! Hurry up!

LIZ
(shouting)
How can I when the bark is so sticky?!

And you shouldn't be shouting anyway!

KATIE At this point, who the heck cares?! It's growing on her finger!

Liz has just reached the

.BRANCH

with the growing fruit.

LIZ Listen! I'll be fine! I'll be down in a sec!

Liz steadies herself on the branch, slowly stands up. Balances on the branch, wags her tail from side to side. Steps with care.

The fruit is black, almost ripe. Looks somewhat hairy.

LIZ
(to herself)
Jackpot!

Liz crouches down and grabs the fruit, but the lasso slides off her shoulder and falls onto the

.GROUND

where Eco and company see it fall.

LIZ
No—!
(growls)
Hey!

INTERCUT BRANCH/GROUND

ECO
Ya?

LIZ
Maybe help me down a bit?

ECO
How?

LIZ
I dunno, maybe throw the rope back up?

AUTUMN
I can do it!

Autumn gets up and walks toward the rope.

LIZ
No, no wait, it won't rea—

Autumn trips on the root, which coils itself around her leg, putting her against the tree's bark.

The bark starts to grow on Liz's shoes. She tries to move. She's stuck.

Autumn is dragged up the bark. She hangs from her foot, and the bark slowly makes its way up her leg.

AUTUMN
Help!

LIZ
Get me out! Gemme out!!

Eco thinks for a moment.

ECO
Yus faya!

JAKE
But you told them not to–-

ECO
Yus! Faya!

Slight beat. The bark has now consumed her leg.

Liz's legs are getting eaten up too, but not as fast.

LIZ
Well?! Anything?!?

Autumn starts to hyperventilate. Things go silent. Her fingertips glow hot.

Autumn screams.
A giant flame hits the bark.
It pulls back from Autumn's leg.

It starts to retract from Liz's legs.
She loses her balance and falls.

ECO
Holton!

Eco runs over to under Liz.
Liz falls onto his arms.
They tip over, impact the ground.

Meanwhile on the tree, Autumn still burns the tree, but the bark still holds on.
It inches back from her leg before finally breaking.

Autumn falls down and lands on the ground, groaning.

Jake and Katie rush to help Autumn up.

JAKE
You okay there Autumn?

AUTUMN
Y—yeah, I, I'm fine.

JAKE
Even with your finger?

AUTUMN
F—f—finger?

Autumn looks at her crystallized middle finger, which seems to have shrunk.

She yelps.
Faints.

Smash to black.

she/her/they | wall | sandbox
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1750: Oct 8th 2020 at 9:38:32 AM

Well, you need to work on your script formatting. That was a bit challenging to read, esp. at first. You are going to find that it's way easier to just type directly into a script formatting program and let it guide you, rather than typing everything down and having to go back and redo it all again (that is, if you ever intend to shop your script).

Is this live action, animated, or comic? Each uses a different approach to formatting scripts.

I am going to assume that there are scenes which appear before this, that this isn't the beginning of the story, because that wouldn't make any sense. Therefore, I also assume that you have set up this scene, and the audience fully understands what is going on. Obviously, if any of these assumptions are not accurate, you are going to need to work on that.

I think that there needs to be more buildup to Liz getting to the branch. Someone yelling up and asking her for her progress would do it. I also think that there should be more tension surrounding Autumn's condition—it's a little bit hard to get excited over the character losing a finger. Something more dangerous and intrusive would do the trick. Exactly what depends on the effect you are going for: if a traditional young adult fantasy, her heart is almost traditional. If horrific, then her face.

Either way, Autumn and Liz getting trapped by the tree should happen right after it appears they have solved the problem. Therefore, it would be more effective if Liz actually picked up the fruit, yelled something like "Got it!", everyone cheers, and then the tree pulls it's moves. Finally, several of the group should try and fail to free the two girls, each time ratcheting up the danger and sense of challenge. You have to establish this tree as a powerful and dangerous antagonist before one of the heroes defeats it. Each time someone fails to free the girls, the pain and danger for them should increase. When finally they are freed, the audience will experience a greater sense of relief. Since you have at least two other people sitting there, this should be easy to incorporate into the scene.

I hope these suggestions are helpful!

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.

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