TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The Constructive Criticism Thread

Go To

Please read the rules below before posting. We're taking turns to post text, and text posted out of turn will be hollered.

The discussion over at the "Is being Troperiffic a Bad Thing?" thread got a few of us seriously talking about starting a full-fledged, free for all dedicated ConCrit thread. Thanks go to your friendly neighborhood Herald, chihuahua0, for giving this the go-ahead smile

This is how it's going to work:

  • This thread is for helping people improve as writers. Please stay away from needlessly gushing or needlessly being mean when handing out criticism.
  • No mentioning your own work when giving out criticism. This is to prevent "Let's talk about ME" derails.
  • Feedback will be given to one person at a time. We're taking a deliberately slow pace; a person's turn to get feedback is generally supposed to last a week, but we're not ending someone's turn until they get feedback from at least five different people. On the other hand, the person getting feedback can end their own turn if they figure they're done.
  • When a turn ends, we wait 12 hours to see if anyone of the people who have just given feedback wants to be up next. If they don't, we pick the person up next from the feedback request list.
  • Yes, it's okay to point out spelling and grammar errors made by the person you're giving feedback to.
  • If you're unfamiliar with the original verse of a piece of Fan Fiction up for feedback, pretend it's a piece of original fiction and criticize accordingly.
  • If and when you step up to receive feedback:
    • Post actual writing (not world-building, concepts, layouts, character lists and so on).
    • Be specific in what you are looking for, or at least mention what is troubling you the most.
    • Fan Fiction is fine, but take into account that anyone not familiar with the source material will judge your piece "blind", essentially by the same standards as original fiction. This means you might get called out on flaws that fan fiction usually gets away with in practice, perhaps even justifiably so. Just like any other kind of criticism, consider it or ignore at at your discretion.
    • Be ready to hear some things you probably didn't want to hear. This should go without saying, but, please: No being bitter, being sarcastic, calling people out for "going too far" or otherwise expressing disapproval of the criticism given to you. If you think people are being unfair to your writing, make your case civilly.

With that said, I suppose we can begin and see whether this goes anywhere. The first person to respond with a post to the extent of "I'll go first" will go first.

edited 17th Feb '12 5:07:01 PM by TripleElation

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1626: May 21st 2019 at 6:05:21 PM

Is the Blockedwriter out there somewhere, or do we go to the next person in line?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
pablo360 Dark Mathemagician from a vector space tangent to SL(2,R) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Dark Mathemagician
#1627: May 21st 2019 at 7:59:41 PM

I've sent them a message; I think per the rules they have 48 hours to respond.

I love how our society has agreed that certain things are unrealistic because they don't occur in fiction.
pablo360 Dark Mathemagician from a vector space tangent to SL(2,R) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Dark Mathemagician
#1628: May 26th 2019 at 7:16:16 PM

Alright, it's officially beyond time to move on to the next person.

I love how our society has agreed that certain things are unrealistic because they don't occur in fiction.
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#1629: May 30th 2019 at 3:04:18 AM

Have you messaged the next person? Wolf Of The West I believe?

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
AdeptGaderius Otaku from the Anime World Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Otaku
#1630: Jun 23rd 2019 at 2:10:24 AM

It's been approximately four or five weeks since anyone has responded on the thread. Wolf Of The West hasn't responded over 48 hours and counting. We'll move down the list in the Con Crit Thread sandbox.

Messaging Crossover Enthusiast for the thread and see if he responds within 48 hours or two days.

Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1631: Jun 23rd 2019 at 3:07:01 AM

I'm here. The main thing I'm looking for is if my writing/sentences feel choppy and how I handled a work more focused on actions than words, but I'm open to other critiques.

Also, I'm a girl.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Jun 23rd 2019 at 6:08:25 AM

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
AdeptGaderius Otaku from the Anime World Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Otaku
#1632: Jun 23rd 2019 at 4:54:55 AM

Now, Crossover-Enthusiast can you post the link to your work on this thread. This allows me or any other critic to read and critique your work.

Edited by AdeptGaderius on Jun 23rd 2019 at 4:57:23 AM

Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1633: Jun 23rd 2019 at 5:35:56 AM

Oh! Ah, sorry, here. I thought people just get it from the Con Crit Thread sandbox. My bad.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
CrystalGlacia from at least we're not detroit (Living Relic)
#1634: Jun 23rd 2019 at 5:59:04 AM

Life advice: make it as easy as possible for people to help you, and you'll be more likely to get the help you need.

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth."
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1635: Jun 23rd 2019 at 4:48:46 PM

Well, Im a little confused. Your link connects to the last of 8 chapters, none of which seem connected to each other, and none of which seem to be complete stories. Am I missing some context?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1636: Jun 24th 2019 at 2:11:35 AM

All of them are separate stories because it's from a prompt list. I want chapter 8 to be reviewed specifically.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#1637: Jul 1st 2019 at 9:07:58 AM

Dunno how useful this critique will be for you tbh, but here goes.

I like that the story has a recognisable beginning middle and end, but I didn't feel super connected to any of the characters, and it felt like I was being told second hand what was happening rather than being there in the moment with the characers - which feels like a show vs tell problem to me. Now, maybe if I was familiar with Steven Universe I might react differently, but that's neither here nor there as far as the writing is concerned.

It's also very short - and I must confess I'm not overly familiar with flash fiction - but I do like the slice of life aspect of it.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1638: Jul 3rd 2019 at 6:10:58 PM

That's understandable. Lion, Pumpkin, and Cat Steven are more minor characters, and Lion is the one with the most established characterization - which I didn't even show off that much.

Reading it back, I do think I spent longer describing the actions than I should've. I'll need to keep that in mind.

There's an actual term for Flash Fiction? Neat.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Jul 3rd 2019 at 10:39:35 AM

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1639: Jul 3rd 2019 at 7:04:42 PM

Showing vs. Telling

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
AdeptGaderius Otaku from the Anime World Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Otaku
#1640: Aug 12th 2019 at 1:20:31 AM

Since this thread has been inactive for many weeks, it's the next poster's turn for the critique.

Wait. I don't need to message the next poster because the next poster is me.

I'll be patient for someone to critique my work, a short fantasy-horror tale about a girl and her toys: Too Old for Toys.

GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#1641: Aug 12th 2019 at 1:36:26 AM

[up]Sorry, but I think you skipped over mine.

Which would be here.

Edited by GoldenKaos on Aug 12th 2019 at 9:42:40 AM

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1642: Aug 12th 2019 at 6:04:03 AM

I'll critique both of you. Give me a day or so.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1643: Aug 13th 2019 at 7:17:01 AM

@Adept Gaderius:

Your treatment of a child’s experience of sexual abuse comes across as both exceptionally sensitive and chillingly accurate (I have no idea if it actually is accurate, but it comes across that way). The scenes in which she reacts to being molested strike just the right balance between too much and too little detail, and focus appropriately on her internal emotional state. Her language in these scenes is a convincing mix of defiance and vulnerability (although I have reservations about her dialogue in other scenes, as I explain below. I think your goal was to depict a girl successfully escaping exploitation and entering into the world of magic, and you succeed. I do have a few criticisms, however.

The main issue here is believability of the setting, and of the character when she isn’t being victimized. First, what time period is this? You would have to go back to the 1970’s to find a public school this incompetent, and then they probably wouldn’t even think of sexual abuse as a possibility. Second, your protagonist uses vocabulary and thought processes that are somewhat in advance of what a real 11 year old girl would be capable of. It happens that I am the parent of a 12 year old girl, perhaps I can help in this regard.

If this is the modern world (the use of a projector in the classroom seems pretty retro; then again the restaurant scene feels more modern) then you should be aware that teachers and other school officials are mandatory reporters whenever child abuse is suspected. Child services would be brought in immediately, a trained social worker would interview the girl in privacy, and no one would even mention transferring her to another school. The principle is so belligerent, he comes across as a cardboard villain. At least in a developed country like the US or Western Europe—if this takes place in another region of the world then you need to make that clearer to a Western audience.

As for her dialogue, which is somewhat too advanced for her, I can pick out the sections that I feel need revision, and suggest alternatives, but that is going to require more work than I can invest so far, so you will have to give me another week on that one. Here’s a hint though—my daughter never uses a three syllable word when a two syllable one would do, and her knowledge of well known phrases and references is limited to what she sees on the cartoon network. They don’t use language like “untimely demise” there, nor do they use complex sentences with multiple phrases. Girls of that age can vary from one another, and it isn’t impossible for an 11 year old to have an advanced vocabulary, but if you intend that your protagonist is ahead of her peers in that regard, then again you should make that clearer to your audience—perhaps by mentioning it in passing somewhere. Thought patterns are a little different—preteen children are still in what developmental psychologists call the “Concrete Operational” stage of intellectual thinking—they really aren’t capable of very much abstract thought, being pretty much limited to rules, patterns and connections that they can see or experience directly. “Why is my life going downhill?” is not a question they could ask themselves (unless coached to by an adult). “Why does the monster hurt me?” would be more typical. As another example, my daughter would probably react to her stuffies coming to life more or less the same way your protagonist does; but never in a million years would it occur to her that a stuffie shouldn’t blink.

The dialogue of the Moxie, on the other hand, is stilted and clumsy. You really need to give such an important secondary character more personality and style. If the stuffies are coming alive because of some inner ability of the girl’s, then shouldn’t Moxie resemble someone she would be more familiar and comfortable with? Again, think of an animated cartoon character (from whatever period this is taking place in).

Overall, I think this was well done and I wish you luck with it.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1644: Aug 13th 2019 at 7:18:10 AM

@Golden Kaos:

I think that this is really well written—the mood is set immediately and convincingly, the worldbuilding is convincing, and the plot is engaging. The opening scene was really well done—in most ways. The pacing was good and the setting successfully created a creepy, gothic atmosphere. I would recommend reading this to anyone.

Your main challenge is characterization. All of your characters fall a little flat—your protagonist is the best of the bunch, which is good, but he still needs improvement, and your villain is so opaque I can get no insight into what kind of person she is or why she is doing what she does. The “cackle of evil” you give her at the end of her scene doesn’t help at all—to me it comes across as rather cliché. Let’s break this down.

You open with the antagonist’s scene. The focus of your writing here is almost entirely what she sees, hears or experiences as she moves through the castle, which is a fine way to open, since it maintains an air of mystery about her, which fits perfectly the overall air of mystery of a lonely castle at night, but it cant carry the entire scene. It starts to become apparent what she is doing when she encounters the castle steward. After that, you should be providing hints and clues to her personality and character in a gradually increasing degree of clarity. By the time the scene is over, we should know perfectly well what kind of person she is, and why she has done what she has. We don’t need her backstory—we need her to engage in actions, or think thoughts, that outwardly manifest her inner motivations. For example—in a murder mystery a man who kills out of passion uses a blunt instrument, but a man who kills for gain or calculation uses a more efficient weapon like a crossbow. We know she is serving old gods, but we dont know why or why she is willing to go to such extremes. If you are keeping this a mystery for the protagonist to solve, and you don’t necessarily want the readers to know too much ahead of time, then her motivations should be foreshadowed in a way that readers will find interesting and engaging (you want them to keep reading, after all).

Next, you move on to the protagonist, and his efforts to fit into a religious order. He isn’t badly written, I found his “fish out of water” schtick funny enough, and his insecurities that stem from his being the disappointing son with no obvious talent made him seem real and helped me relate to him. But he needs a strength or two—something that can account for why people like him and want to help him succeed. I think some clarity that he actually cares about people, and that underneath his ne’er do well persona he really doesn’t want the people around him to suffer in any way. The traditional way to accomplish that with a character like this is either a romantic interest or a pet, or a friend who is even more insecure and vulnerable than he is. Anyone he can go out of his way to support or nurture somehow, even if only in an indirect way that he can plausibly deny. That would help explain why Lucan and the others are willing to help him succeed, despite his apparent lack of talent. It might also explain why the Goddess chooses him (his rougish dark side is another one).

Tali and Fedror are so flat and uninteresting that you could combine them into one character or even eliminate them entirely without losing anything plot relevent. If you want to keep them give them something to do, like trying to teach Artur how to fight (perhaps unsuccessfully—foreshadowing?). Fighting is a good way to reveal character—howsoever you intend Artur to defeat the main antagonist (with guile?) you can foreshadow it in a training scene.

The one character I wanted to learn more about was Lucan—I think he could go in several different directions, and I hope you give him more screen time.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#1645: Aug 13th 2019 at 7:25:04 AM

Thanks, that's valuable stuff.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
AdeptGaderius Otaku from the Anime World Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Otaku
#1646: Aug 13th 2019 at 2:32:07 PM

Thanks for the critique. I thought my story was really cringe-worthy for a horror short story. But then you critiqued my work and found out whay should I improve on.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1647: Aug 13th 2019 at 4:01:07 PM

You're both welcome.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#1648: Sep 2nd 2019 at 4:36:27 AM

I'll add my 2 cents right now to yours, Adept Galerius, with the caveat that I only got around halfway through, (because I have a short attention span and often forget to return to finish things) and now the permission to see the file has been revoked so I can't finish it.

I got up to at least page 38, I generally agree with DeMarquis but my main thoughts are as follows:

  • Very emotional delivery, I buy the trauma and was hooked by the premise from the star.
  • Dialogue is often stilted and clumsy. Sounds like someone reading written lines off a teleprompter rather than organic dialogue from actual people.
  • I noticed past and present tense get mixed up at times. It happened too seldom to be a deliberate stylistic choice IMO, so it's just something you may want to keep in mind during the editing phase.
  • I found it jarring that the father's physical description was given to us for the first time quite a while after he first appears. Usually, you either put it in as soon as you can or not do it at all. I think it would have been fine without, you don't necessarily need it, and given that he's the object of horror in this story it might work better if you know less details about him.
  • In my notes I have "child would use simpler language" for page 38 - I couldn't tell you what specifically that refers to anymore, but the character generally speaks like an adult and even a well-read child with a good vocabulary would speak somewhat more child-like than this MC.

Those are my opinions, I think you've got a really good story here that needs polish.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
AdeptGaderius Otaku from the Anime World Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Otaku
#1649: Sep 2nd 2019 at 4:47:05 AM

I've already granted access to the file right now. Feel free to continue it if you have the time.

AdeptGaderius Otaku from the Anime World Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Otaku
#1650: Oct 29th 2019 at 4:26:36 AM

It's been a long time since this thread had an update. I've recently posted a new story in the Con Crit Thread sandbox.

The short story is called Amida. It's a fantasy short story about a young slave girl who finds out she is the Amida, the deliverer of the Kaom Amarelo.

This is the link to the story: Amida


Total posts: 2,054
Top