I liked Train Man, at least the protagonist wasn't throwing away girlfriends because he could, Train Man fucking EARNED his Hermes, none of this "angling for breakup" shit.
Honestly, Train Man is a rare example of a romance story for MEN, which is why I relate to it twice as hard because it admits men who want to fall in love and do girly shit with their lady even exist.
Whereas stuff like Scott Pilgrim just reminds me of how much of a romantic failure I seem compared to my peers.
Hell Hasn't Earned My TearsThe funny thing about Scott Pilgrim is that there is a certain amount of Write What You Know involved in it. Namely, the title character is based off the author himself and Ramona Flowers is based off of his wife. Clearly, what the author knows and what you know are two different things!
I actually did a blogpost
on why I didn't like this series, so the con list is going to be miniscule.
Pros:
- O'Malley's female characters are really well-developed: Kim Pine, Ramona Flowers, Knives Chau, Envy Adams. All are in varying degrees of adorable and sexy.
- A girl drummer: very progressive.
- The fighting is neat.
Cons:
- The gaming reference overload: Hey look, a Zelda reference! Just like the other videogame references! They become cheap after a while.
- The art style: It looks like Peanuts and am I the only one who got a little grossed out seeing a sex scene done in comic strip style and rated suitable for ages 13 and up?
- Scott's a douchebag: mooches off his friends, takes no responsibility, and is dating a highschooler while out of high school. I don't give a flying fuck what the age of consent is in Canada: if you're out of highschool and dating a highscooler, you're a Goddamn sexual predator.
- It's FLCL. Read my post and scroll down
.
edited 8th Feb '12 10:12:08 AM by EnglishMajor
With blood and rage of crimson red ripped from a corpse so freshly dead together with our hellish hate we'll burn you all that is your fateHey, just because I think saving a man's life from suicide from across a God-damn ocean using IM was the greatest bromance of my life doesn't mean I'm a bad person.
I'm just miffed that Scott Pilgrim is seen as a pure hero by some instead of a deconstruction of a "hero" protagonist. Also some panels of Scott are disturbingly similar to facial expressions in the Welcome To The NHK manga. Considering NEET is on the Scott Pilgrim tropes page, I'm eerily surprised at how accurate that claim might be.
Hell Hasn't Earned My Tears![]()
I agree with everything except the "developed" female characters—although, I only use the movie for reference.
I came away watching the film with the general impression that Ramona hadn't learned a single thing throughout the entire plot. Basically, the story pretty much tells you that she almost assuredly brought the "Seven Evil Exes" thing on herself (either cheating on or dumping said exes for petty reasons) until in the end, Scott pretty much solves all of her problems for her.
And Knives struck me as a somewhat two-dimensional asian girl stereotype. Yes, she "matured" at the end of the story, but her entire motivation was that she was the perfect example of the submissive asian fetish. It isn't until the very end, when Scott himself admits that he was seeing Ramona behind her back, that she accepts that maybe going Ax-Crazy and rushing into a fight over a guy might not have been the best idea. I understand that she's young and they're playing up her naivete and vulnerabilities, but the character is what she is. There's no introspection or self-appraisal. She just hears the truth from the horse's mouth and that's it.
As a Canadian, I'd like to say for the record that the age of consent in my country is 16 years old. Make of that what you will.
It's true that Scott Pilgrim was such a d0uc#eb@g, and it's not a good thing for a character who matches hir Character Title to be unlikeable! He did experience Character Development, especially at the end. Okay, it took that long for it to happen, but better late than never, right?
edited 7th Feb '12 7:43:02 AM by TiggersAreGreat
Oh, Equestria, we stand on guard for thee!Admit right away I'm going off of the movie, but I don't get the FLCL ripoff claim. Yeah, Scott is within the Unlucky Everydude type and Ramona is within the Manic Pixie Dreamgirl type, but I don't really see any striking personality similarities between Scott/Naota and Ramona/Haruka.
HodorI've heard that in the comic, he initially seems like a Nice Guy but is revealed to be an Unreliable Narrator later on. The movie version of him is clearly in Unsympathetic Comedy Protagonist territory.
HodorI didn't think Scott was that bad. I mean, he's a loser and a bit of a deadbeat but that's kind of the point. Over the course of the series he deals with these problems and learns to grow up.
“My body is ready. I’m gonna take your names, take your ass, and then we’ll be making games”. - Reggie Fils-Aime, CEO of Nintendo AmericaWell, that doesn't help if he's so alien or unlikable at first that people don't care about said growth. I learned a similar lesson a long time ago in regards to Final Fantasy X: it didn't matter how much Tidus grew or developed throughout the story, the fact that he annoyed the audience from the jump is all they remembered.
I personally had no investment in whether or not he succeeded. He was a dick, Knives was a stereotype, Ramona was a manipulative, wishy-washy tramp. I didn't care who ended up with who, who defeated who, or what lessons they learned.
I found Scott reasonably likeable in a "he's kinda so clueless he probably doesn't realize he's being a dick" sort of way. I found a lot of the characterizations in Scott Pilgrim, while exaggerated, to be exellent. I've known girls like Knives who are so besotted with their boyfriends (or with the idea of having a boyfriend, or of being a loyal girlfriend) that they are maniacally protective of them, even if said boyfriend treats them like dirt. It is to O'Malley's credit that Knives grows considerably in the comics, more so than she does in the movie (anyone see the film's alternate ending?) At the same time, I have a problem with Scott, and it's the same problem I have with a lot of lead characters in stories where multiple romantic entanglements are at issue: I don't get at all what the girls see in him. Knives I can see, maybe, because she's 17, he's older and listens to her, but apparently loads of women and gay men find Scott attractive, at least in universe. Given that he's a shiftless, clueless mooch (again, not that he can't be likeable) I just don't get the fascination.
Scott in general seemed pretty likable to me. Yes, starting to date Ramona before breaking up with Knives was not cool, but given how ga-ga Knives was I can sympathize with being afraid of how the confrontation might turn out. And other than that incident, I don't really get where the "Scott is a jerk" thing comes from.
Oh, and why do people call Ramona a Manic Pixie Dream Girl? She's far from manic and she spends too much time avoiding or being lukewarm towards Scott to qualify.
Movie!Scott treated people like crap before Ramona even showed up at all.
EDIT: Ramona also fits most of the first sentence that describes MPDG: "She's stunningly attractive, high on life, full of wacky quirks and idiosyncrasies (generally including childlike playfulness and a tendency towards petty crime), often with a touch of wild hair dye."
It's the second part where she doesn't really measure up.
edited 8th Feb '12 5:50:35 AM by KingZeal
Acts like a jerk in what ways? Can you be specific?
I'll give you stunningly attractive and wild hair dye, and she does have some petty crime in her backstory, though not in the story's present day. However, while she's got some quirks and idiosyncrasies, I wouldn't call them wacky ones (not by the story's standards, anyway), and I certainly wouldn't call her "high on life" or exhibiting "childlike playfulness".
Y'know when you actually read the books the whole Knives thing doesn't seem so bad. I mean he didn't go out and make out with them both at the same party, he just didn't break up with her. I mean, the whole point of him dating Knives was that he didn't want to be alone and if things didn't work out with Romona he'd need a back up plan.
It might sound shitty but it happens a lot. If you're in a relationship you want to know this other thing is going somewhere before breaking it off. Plus Scott and Romona didn't really do anything but have tea.
“My body is ready. I’m gonna take your names, take your ass, and then we’ll be making games”. - Reggie Fils-Aime, CEO of Nintendo America

Pros: "The Existential Horror of Honest Ed's" is untouchable, it is the funniest short section of a comics run I've read since Genshiken. I loved it.
The setting is well drawn and it depicts hipsters in a not-too judgemental but still snarky light, instead of condemning them outright.
There really need to be more comics about people of the Gen Y age bracket instead of trying to cater to ageing fanboys of superhero comics if the medium is to survive in its Western form outside of webcomics.
Cons:
I have never been in Scott Pilgrim's situation in my life, ever. I'm not even talking about his having to fight seven evil exes. That part's fine. I'm talking about the idea of Scott Pilgrim somehow being some kind of relatable everyman. For people like me, who have never been dumped, or even accepted into a relationship like that, he's about as relatable as a fucking Dalek. I have no real insight into what I'm supposed to do when presented with his situation except grumble at his "problems" when I have to deal with 20 something young men just like him on a daily basis who complain about their "girl problems" while calling me whiney or emo for not wanting to listen to their said problems when the core issue of my discontent isn't directly related to my everlasting loneliness, but it's a big factor. I have serious problems having any empathy for guys like this, much like Todd In The Shadows has problems empathising with Chris Brown.
That's pretty much all I could come up with having only read up to Volume 4 so far.
Discuss the for and against these arguments here, and if you have something new to bring to the table, please do.
Hell Hasn't Earned My Tears