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Trope Repair Shop: Does it need improvement? (also concerns Image Pickin')

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Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#526: Feb 11th 2012 at 7:23:41 PM

My experience with "redirect farming" is that it's also an open invitation to look for a rename as well.

Too often I see people with "I don't understand that, what's wrong with it?" mentality, when the question they should be asking is "I don't understand this, what is wrong with me?". We shouldn't be in a race to the bottom over dumbing things down and spoonfeeding.

That's because understanding the English language is the only requirement for using the site. Hence, clarity hinges only on the English language and common idioms there of, rather than the memes or quotes from works that are kicking around at any given time.

Fight smart, not fair.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#527: Feb 11th 2012 at 7:27:48 PM

Also, a lot of TRS threads start as something else and then end up redirect farming as a way to help get more wiks.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#528: Feb 11th 2012 at 7:30:06 PM

Wait, didn't someone mention that we have a "needs redirects" thread in Special Efforts or some such? Maybe we should sticky that.

Fight smart, not fair.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#529: Feb 11th 2012 at 7:31:58 PM

Someone offered it as an idea. I'm not so sure it would be a good one. A lot of the mass threads end up messes and tropes that 'need redirects' tend to have something deeper wrong with them.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
HersheleOstropoler You gotta get yourself some marble columns from BK.NY.US Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Less than three
You gotta get yourself some marble columns
#530: Feb 11th 2012 at 10:05:10 PM

462:

Well, the problem is that TRS is basically Quality by Popular Vote. Any objective criteria we have (such as "it has 30% misuse" or "it's a real English term that is unrelated to the trope" or whatever) are still trumped by "...but I like that name". And the same applies to cutting, merging, or whatever else TRS tries to decide on.
Ok, see, as I said, I see the opposite problem*. Of course tropes that meet the objective rename criteria — lots of wicks that are false positives (because false negatives are impossible to measure), it's a character name, it's an unhelpful and unamusing snowclone, etc. — should be changed. But in principle, and according to the guidelines, the burden of proof is on the pro-change side, and there being no reason to change a name constitutes a reason not to, and "I don't like the name it has" or "I thought of a better name" isn't enough. And so functional tropes like Yum Yum and Bugs Meany Is Gonna Walk are renamed because vox populi vox Dei est or something, not because there's any indication they need to be.

I should point out that That Other Wiki, in their equivalent of the TRS, has a policy to explicitly discount all arguments that aren't valid ("this article is biased" - "but I like the bias"). I realize we are not Wikipedia, but it's interesting to consider as a thought experiment.
Sure. Sounds good to me. Though that would make it less of a guideline and more of a rule.

Though I don't object to that


I almost wholly agree with 464 and the idea of TRS being a last resort, if a page is borked and nothing else is helping.

I have some draft invalid reasons here. I want to point out to Spark9 that "I like it" is indeed there. It's not about thought-policing, it's about not wasting time on bullshit lines of reasoning. I wouldn't want any system preventing people from putting forward those or any other reasons, but I'd look the other way*

if they got laughed at for doing so.

495:

One advantage of a mod/forum guide having to okay a proposal before it went visible would be they could doom hysterical proposals like that before they enter view.
We'd need about 30 more moderators to look at every thread

edited 11th Feb '12 10:06:57 PM by HersheleOstropoler

The child is father to the man —Oedipus
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#531: Feb 12th 2012 at 1:31:39 AM

And so functional tropes like Yum Yum and Bugs Meany Is Gonna Walk are renamed because vox populi vox Dei est or something, not because there's any indication they need to be.

According to When To Rename A Trope, an unclear name is enough of a reason to propose a rename. Both those names are horribly unclear.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#532: Feb 12th 2012 at 3:00:55 AM

I think a good trope name is one that would make sense were I to explain it to my elderly mother. She wouldn't understand what Yum Yum is, but (to her embarrassment), she'd probably understand what Erotic Eating is.

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#533: Feb 12th 2012 at 8:32:53 AM

@Hershele: "I like it" was pretty much the only argument that was put forward to support keeping Nightmare Fuel. I'd be all for that argument being invalid, but apparently 130 or so people around here disagree.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#534: Feb 12th 2012 at 8:40:01 AM

"I like it"

I think people forget that part of the purpose of the website is to have fun. If people think something is fun and we can't convince people it is causing a major problem for the wiki, then "I like it" can be a perfectly valid reason to have something.

Spark9 Since: Nov, 2010
#535: Feb 12th 2012 at 11:12:31 AM

[up] Well, it's a fundamental issue, but generally the site has a clear goal that is distinct from "what people like". That means that if enough people like something that deviates from the site goal, it gets cut anyway - the biggest example being Troper Tales.

Anyway, "I don't like it" is now explicitly and formally disallowed to start a thread on either IP or TRS, so that solves one half of the problem. The other half is that anything related to Harry Potter or My Little Pony is impervious to any changes, at least for now. YMMV as to whether this is a problem, but it relates to the fundamental issue above.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#536: Feb 12th 2012 at 11:17:15 AM

Not true. We renamed The Dumbledore, and all of the My Little Pony stuff that's come up lately has been clean up that's coming along at about normal TRS pace.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#537: Feb 12th 2012 at 11:19:05 AM

Harry Potter may be slowly getting out of the way, since movies and books are all over, but ponies won't be easy to maintain for a while.

edited 12th Feb '12 11:19:16 AM by lu127

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#538: Feb 12th 2012 at 11:22:06 AM

You did see my line about being a major problem for the wiki, right? I wasn't involved in the Troper Tales discussion, but presumably it got cut because enough people were convinced it caused major problems for the wiki.

Also, cheep shots at fandoms you apparently don't like aren't fair, and aren't accurate. Consider the renaming of The Dumbledore as an example of things Harry Potter related was changed. I've also seen MLP pictures pulled from pages, voted down in pulls, etc. I've seen MLP dedicated tropes get shot down in YKTTW.

lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#539: Feb 12th 2012 at 11:29:46 AM

I'm of the Harry Potter fandom, and I wouldn't have opposed the rename of The Dumbledore, had I been around when it happened.

Now, the immaturity of people attacking pony fans is both annoying and unfair. The premise of this IP thread being the biggest offender. However, ponies have a lot of shoehorning everywhere. The fact that there used to be a High Octane Nightmare Fuel for a show like that, can tell you how overzealous the fans are.

The point being, a trope named after a character, isn't a very clear name, regardless of the popularity of the work. By our criteria that's the reason to rename, not "I don't like it".

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
HersheleOstropoler You gotta get yourself some marble columns from BK.NY.US Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Less than three
You gotta get yourself some marble columns
#540: Feb 12th 2012 at 12:59:09 PM

I had a whole proposal written out for what I think should be done with TRS; I come back today, look at the headlines, and find it's been implemented before I even posted it. If anything, mine was slightly more rename-friendly ::polishes Fo RKS badge::

[up][up]

I wasn't involved in the Troper Tales discussion, but presumably it got cut because enough people were convinced it caused major problems for the wiki.
Yabbut no one demonstrated as much, at least not problems that couldn't be solved with less drastic action.

But that's not a discussion it's fruitful to have. The important part is that the process should be evidence-based first and foremost.

The child is father to the man —Oedipus
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#541: Feb 12th 2012 at 2:14:32 PM

There's a difference between "I like this page, it's fun to read." and "I like this name."

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#542: Feb 12th 2012 at 2:19:25 PM

Still, if "I don't like it" is no longer a valid argument for cutting, renaming, or really any major action - and it shouldn't be - then "I like it" also needs to be considered an invalid argument for the inverse.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#543: Feb 12th 2012 at 2:24:41 PM

The Just for Fun pages beg to differ. We have a lot of things on this wiki that really are just because people like it. I think the real argument though is 'This is fun and it's not causing any problems on the wiki.'

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#544: Feb 12th 2012 at 2:28:28 PM

Right, that's what I mean. I have no problem with Just For Fun pages at all, in fact I like some of them quite a bit. But it's the bloated Natter Magnets like ANF/HONF and others that need a better argument besides "I like it" in favor of keeping them or not making any major changes.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
LMage Since: May, 2011
#545: Feb 12th 2012 at 2:30:00 PM

I think the argument is more "This is fun, it has easily fixable problems if people will just put the effort in".

Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#546: Feb 12th 2012 at 2:31:37 PM

And that's exactly the problem. Most of the "it's fun" people also have no desire to put any work into the fun page. That's starting to change over on the NF/HONF thread, which is a very good thing.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
HersheleOstropoler You gotta get yourself some marble columns from BK.NY.US Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Less than three
You gotta get yourself some marble columns
#547: Feb 12th 2012 at 2:37:22 PM

"I like it" isn't a more valid reason than "I don't like it," but we really don't need reasons to keep a name, or, rather, lack of any valid reason to change a name is a valid reason to keep it.

The child is father to the man —Oedipus
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#548: Feb 12th 2012 at 2:37:27 PM

It is. Once that thread is over I'm going to make a special efforts clean up thread to co-ordinate that.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#549: Feb 12th 2012 at 2:41:54 PM

@Hershele, I agree, I'm not really talking about renames, more about people who argue or vote to block page actions with that argument.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
HersheleOstropoler You gotta get yourself some marble columns from BK.NY.US Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Less than three
You gotta get yourself some marble columns
#550: Feb 12th 2012 at 2:51:31 PM

"I see valid reasons to rename, but I don't think it should be renamed because I like it" is, well, wrong. "I see no valid reasons to rename" is fine, and in that case "... and I like it" is lagniappe.

So "I like it" to mean the second is just poorly worded, not invalid.

NF/HONF?

edited 12th Feb '12 2:53:20 PM by HersheleOstropoler

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

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