TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Trope Repair Shop: Does it need improvement? (also concerns Image Pickin')

Go To

Autumncomet from the hive Since: Jan, 2011
#501: Feb 11th 2012 at 11:55:26 AM

[up]That's a good idea, and if someone wants to axe big amounts of natter from a page, then they should be encouraged to take it to Trope Talk before TRS (or Special Efforts if it's a really big issue).

@Cryptic: I don't visit TRS and IP that much, but the last bit of hysteria I saw prior to the whole ANF/HONF thing was the Nakama rename from all sides...

EDIT: Bugger. Page topper. So right now the conversation has moved on to discussing suggestions on clarifying the rules of TRS and opening up TRS to more tropers.

edited 11th Feb '12 11:56:49 AM by Autumncomet

One Piece blog Beyond the Lampshade
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#502: Feb 11th 2012 at 11:56:37 AM

[up]Oh yes, though there's a NATTER Alert thread in Special Efforts for that and I see people asking "Can I chainsaw this?" on there.

edited 11th Feb '12 11:57:03 AM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#503: Feb 11th 2012 at 11:58:10 AM

[up][up] Yeah, nakama. I personally think it was the wrong decision, but neither side really distinguished itself in that debacle. Poor show all around there really (although, with the crowner volume at least it had a proper mandate for the decision). However a proposal by-line should be neutral in its description of what it is for, and not try to lead a decision down any particular road.

edited 11th Feb '12 12:07:33 PM by CrypticMirror

ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#504: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:01:31 PM

Can mods have/get the autority to rename threads that do have an overly biased title? If a thread does end up named Simply Awful, Has To Go that isn't neutral and it makes sense for mods to rename the thread.

edited 11th Feb '12 12:01:40 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#505: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:02:08 PM

The biggest reason people think the TRS is all about cutting and renaming isn't the titles. It's the fact that they only notice us when we do something they don't like. They don't notice when a page is suddenly clean instead of a nattery mess. When a definition is suddenly much clearer than it was a day ago. They just gloss over that. People only notice if we do something that upsets them.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#506: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:03:00 PM

However a proposal by-line should be neutral in its description of what it is for, and not try to lead a decision down any particular road.

So on one hand, you think TRS should be "more accessible" to the troper mass, and to do that we should have more regulations, such as one dictating the tone said troper mass writes their OP? That would reduce clique-ness? Don't cite the problem like you think it's a problem!

"Come to TRS! All are welcome. So long as you write stuff in the tone we tell you employ!"

edited 11th Feb '12 12:03:58 PM by Ghilz

ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#507: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:03:35 PM

[up][up]People are also unlikely to notice any changes if the decision was to change nothing, or to lock down a frivilous complaint thread. Heck, even regular TRS-ers are less likely to notice a thread if the mods lock it within 2 days.

edited 11th Feb '12 12:05:42 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#508: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:03:51 PM

Nakama needed to die in a fire. It was culturally restricted, the usage of the word was incorrect, (it does not mean what we used it for in Japanese) and it only became popular because a fansubbing group of a series that has flopped anywhere but in Japan, lacked the sensibility to translate the word. People should not have to run to Japanese or any other language for a trope with so much international use. Other series use it in a military sense. If there was a bad name by all our objective criteria, it was this one.

When Natter leaves, people are more likely to say: "Where did my edit of conversing with that other dude go?".

edited 11th Feb '12 12:05:21 PM by lu127

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#509: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:05:58 PM

@ #505 that is a big reason. But there are lots of little reasons behind it. If you can clear up the little drip, drip, drip, of small stuff then the big stuff seldom looks so big.

Autumncomet from the hive Since: Jan, 2011
#510: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:13:34 PM

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with the rename of Nakama, but I remember reading through the entire thread and not being impressed by anyone. But this isn't the topic of discussion.

I feel like some sort of ticker on the side featuring the newest and latest TRS/IP threads would really go a long way towards people not only noticing TRS and IP when their favorite trope gets renamed or image gets pulled. It might not be feasible though.

Would an Administrivia page on what is and is not acceptable in TRS help with the thread titling issue?

One Piece blog Beyond the Lampshade
Ironeye Cutmaster-san from SoCal Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
#511: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:16:00 PM

We are not talking about the rename of Nakama. That's one of the fastest ways to make a TRS or Wiki Talk thread derail into a flame war.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#512: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:22:29 PM

"Oh yes, though there's a NATTER Alert thread in Special Efforts for that and I see people asking "Can I chainsaw this?" on there."

That should be linked on the Welcome to the Trope Repair Shop in order to encourage people to take natter filled pages to that thread rather than start up TRS threads merely for natter/example clean up type stuff.

Also, using Trope Talk: I've seen plenty of times where people start up a TRS page suggesting that two things need to be merged or that a trope is People Sit On Chairs, only to decide that the pages needs to be kept once one or two people explain the distinctions to them. At most, the decision was to add a line or two of clarification to the trope description without making a radical change. That is something that Trope Talk could handle if more people were encouraged to use it.

CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#513: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:25:02 PM

One criteria for renames I'd like to see added is that people are told:

"Consider, if you do not understand it, have you checked that it is not a problem with your understanding rather than a problem with the trope."

Too often I see people with "I don't understand that, what's wrong with it?" mentality, when the question they should be asking is "I don't understand this, what is wrong with me?". We shouldn't be in a race to the bottom over dumbing things down and spoonfeeding.

Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#514: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:26:33 PM

[up]I agree completely.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#515: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:27:16 PM

[up][up] I've added that to this FAQ thread

edited 11th Feb '12 12:27:28 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Nocturna Since: May, 2011
#516: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:29:40 PM

@512: But we don't want people using Trope Talk to proposes merges. Merges are a pretty major change and belong in TRS by default.

Although I suppose a "I don't see how these two tropes are different. Could someone please explain?" type thread could work. But that still runs the risk of people discussing (potential) major changes in the wrong place.

edited 11th Feb '12 12:30:17 PM by Nocturna

lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#517: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:30:00 PM

A name should point you in the right direction while being Concise and Witty, since it is obviously impossible to have it explain the whole trope. How in the world do The Chris Carter Effect, Chuck Cunningham Syndrome and Yandere give me any understanding towards the trope? I have watched the X-files, I speak Japanese, but neither name gives me an inkling on what the trope may be about.

edited 11th Feb '12 12:30:34 PM by lu127

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Autumncomet from the hive Since: Jan, 2011
#518: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:37:21 PM

@Ironeye: Sorry about that. I was casting about for an example of hysteria in TRS and I picked one that qualified all too well. Noted for the future.

[up][up][up]That's a really good idea.

[up][up]Maybe we could bring mergers to Special Efforts? On that note, Special Efforts is for big projects or relatively straightforward ones that'll just take a lot of time, right? I feel like creating a page distinguishing between such sections of the forum will go a long way.

  • Image Pickin': for suggestions on improving the images around the wiki
  • Trope Repair Shop: where you go to help with improving tropes
  • Trope Talk: where you head to discuss tropes and clarify issues with tropes
  • Special Efforts: where big projects or straightforward long-time efforts go

That was terrible. I'm sure someone can improve this. tongue

One Piece blog Beyond the Lampshade
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#519: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:38:40 PM

Special Efforts is about the decision-executing, TRS about decision-making.

So,...no

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#520: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:41:30 PM

For reference, we have a Badass tropes cleanup thread in Special Efforts, and we've found a number of tropes that may require redefining or cutting. However, we can do none of these things unless we go through TRS first, for obvious reasons.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Autumncomet from the hive Since: Jan, 2011
#521: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:41:46 PM

I misread Nocturna's post. Yes, maybe we could discuss mergers in either Trope Talk or TRS, and then move to Special Efforts once it's been decided we're merging.

One Piece blog Beyond the Lampshade
Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#522: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:42:53 PM

Too often I see people with "I don't understand that, what's wrong with it?" mentality, when the question they should be asking is "I don't understand this, what is wrong with me?". We shouldn't be in a race to the bottom over dumbing things down and spoonfeeding.

I agree. I've been guilty of this myself several times.

But we don't want people using Trope Talk to proposes merges. Merges are a pretty major change and belong in TRS by default.

Although I suppose a "I don't see how these two tropes are different. Could someone please explain?" type thread could work. But that still runs the risk of people discussing (potential) major changes in the wrong place.

No, of course Trope Talk shouldn't become a place to make major decisions. However, individuals that are dubious about some aspect of a trope, like whether or not it is sufficiently distinct enough from another trope, should be encourage to raise the issue for discussion in an environment where you don't have a limited number of threads and you aren't going to see your request for clarification turn into a call for immediate action which may not be warranted.

Also, you may find out that there really is no need for a major change. The problem could be that you misread something at 1:00 am in the morning or you were thinking about the page in the wrong way, not that there is a major defect in the page and it must be renamed/purged/whatever now.

Another topic: Do we have a thread for soliciting redirect ideas? Granted redirects are a free action, but sometimes I've seen people create threads just to redirect farm. That ties up valuable TRS slots, and far too often turns into a discussion about something else entirely.

Treblain Not An Avatar Since: Nov, 2012
Not An Avatar
#523: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:53:21 PM

Personally, I'm unhappy with the way a lot of renaming threads go. The pacing of the threads can be very uneven. If a trope gets a strong mandate for a rename early on, and then two months later they're still debating a new name, and then it sinks to the bottom, and then gets bumped and rush-renamed, it's jarring and unfair to people who assumed the thread sputtered out.

I think that if there isn't a good proposed name for a trope, you shouldn't try to force a bad one. Maybe all alternative names crowners should have an option to give up on the rename if it gets significantly more votes than the highest alt-name.

Another problem I see is that the older the wiki and its tropes get, the more they are able to catch on. It doesn't matter if it's a specific reference or an unclear name; if it's been on the wiki for a while, then it's automatically has an edge over something a TRS thread just came up with, because it's familiar to tropers.

One last issue: I feel that there's a perception that trope names should be monolithic, and the name we give something should be used exclusively. This ignores the fact that people might use different expressions to describe a trope. As a wiki, we can only have one name for an article, but if someone wants to use the term "hanging a lantern" instead of "Lampshade Hanging" on this wiki or elsewhere on the internet, they shouldn't be corrected. It's an equally valid term, it's just that we went with the one Mutant Enemy used. Renaming tends to stamp out less popular terms in favor of the "clear, concise, witty" one we come up with.

We're not just men of science, we're men of TROPE!
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#524: Feb 11th 2012 at 12:53:53 PM

[up][up]I agree, redirects should continue to be free, and chasing around for redirects should not be TRS-worthy.

edited 11th Feb '12 12:54:07 PM by CrypticMirror

ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#525: Feb 11th 2012 at 1:12:32 PM

[up][up]There's a separate thread on Wiki Talk now about changing how renaming crowners work, you should probably suggest your ideas there.

[up][up][up]I have also seen entire TRS threads actually titled Redirect Farming and taken up entirely with asking for suggestions. Redirects are as free as deleting natter, so there should just be a thread somewhere in Special Efforts to gather all such farming. Keep it out of TRS, and make more room for issues that require real decision-making.

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

Total posts: 888
Top