No one should be put in the position of having to justify their vote, with some commissar being allowed to pick and choose constitutes a valid vote based on whether or not the person hold their opinion for a list of approved reasons. That is entirely wrong and goes against the spirit of decision by consensus rather than imposition by fiat.
The idea is to encourage more participation in the process, not less.
edited 11th Feb '12 10:12:49 AM by Catbert
I keep saying we need to move TRS to a format that dosen't feel detached and guarded against the main wiki the general tropers. I am not saying we should make it exactly ike YKTW, but something similar.
It defiantly should be it's own thing, not attached to Forums in anyway.
We need to abolish this sense of "Gods throwing lightning bolts at each other" and open up the process so it will encourage tropers to participate.
How's YKTTW LESS detached than the forums. Seriously. Someone enlighten me.
The YKTTW is far more detached from the wiki and any attempt to make the TRS it's own thing will cut it off from the wiki. Right now it's tied into the wiki itself at the same place all the other repair stuff is. It's consistent with the site set up. You're talking about detaching it from the wiki further L Mage.
edited 11th Feb '12 10:25:26 AM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. DickHere is what happens when you click on YKTTW, which is right up there open to anyone that wants to know: You are immediately greeted by a banner that reads "You have a trope that you have seen a million times. It just needs a snappy name. Discuss it here! This is also a good place to call for examples." It's referenced in many places as the place to go when you have a trope you want to add.
Currently there are only two ways find TRS: happening upon it be accident in the forums, are clicking on a banner of a trope that has been called in to question. With the former you are greeted by a daunting list of tropes that have problems with them, combined with icons (the crowner/clock/lock things) that you are likely not to know the meaning off. If you use the latter option you will often feel like are stepping onto a battlefield at worst, at best it's a bunch of people familiar with each other discussing something you like in callous terms, even more scary when it's a big issue (where we especially want input) and the words "cut" "redlink" and "rename" are being thrown around casually.
edited 11th Feb '12 10:25:56 AM by LMage
Is the fact that TRS operates as a forum problematic or hurting the process? I'm not talking about the fact that it's within the forums and difficult to find. Let's say, hypothetically, we detached TRS from the forums, but it operated the same way (posts, avatars, signatures, gingerbread etc.). Would that be causing problems? I have found forum-style conversation the most enlightening so far.
No, YKTTW is just as bad in that regard. TRS has a thread explaining the process to you the moment you see it. And I'd hardly think anyone would have trouble with terms like "rename" and "cut". Those are crystal clear.
Things like redlinking and the like, I agree. Maybe we need an Administrivia on TRS Terminology?
edited 11th Feb '12 10:35:03 AM by lu127
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteerand moving it from the forums would reduce that down to one way to get it.
Seriously though, the forums are a fine place for it. It sounds like what you want is a TRS button up at the top of the page next to YKTTW, and maybe a Welcome Page just for TRS.
and yes, something explaining terminology would be huge. I'm still not sure exactly what redshifting or what wicks are...
edited 11th Feb '12 10:42:04 AM by Blissey1
XP granted for befriending a giant magical spider!![]()
I meant that words like "rename" and "cut" are terrifying and when used casually implies power and danger against a well like page.
I think at the very least a button to TRS should be added, and the banner should be adjusted to encourage people to come to the thread a voice their opinion. I realize that moving it off the forums is not likely to happen, but I feel like it would be a big step to destroying the clique-y feel of the place.
K. So add a button to TRS on the side bar. Simple enough.
EDIT: How does YKTTW feel "less Clique-y"? I opened it right now, 3 of the first 5 YKTT Ws are by the same person. How does it feel less like a clique? And this isn't a rare occurrence that the top posts are from the same 2 or 3 people.
edited 11th Feb '12 10:53:45 AM by Ghilz
Yeah it does. So nevermind then. TRS _is_ more accessible than YKTTW already.
YKTTW is very cliquey and if your topic isn't something that they're interested in you'll never get replies on it. It's very easy for one to fall off the front page and you have to keep constantly bumping your work to get anyone to notice it. It's really a mess.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dickyeah, no. A link under a side tab that most people never open does not make for more visibility than a button at the top of every single page. TRS really does need a link at the top of the page.
XP granted for befriending a giant magical spider!It has one. It's called "Forum". Which is more accessible to newbies than an acronym like YKTTW.
edited 11th Feb '12 11:03:11 AM by Ghilz
Ok, let's add another button on the top of the page. It certainly can't hurt, can it?
And I agree with Shimaspawn. YKTTW basically encourages cliques with the five hat rule.
edited 11th Feb '12 11:03:44 AM by lu127
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - FighteerIt is also nearly impossible to find "stale" YKTTW pages or review old pages to see if there is anything worth reviving.
Perhaps we should start a new thread soliciting ideas for things we consider problems with YKTTW and features we'd like to have added.
But anyway, anyone else have ideas for how to make people more aware of TRS and how to better notify people of major changes (especially renames and cuts) that are being considered?
edited 11th Feb '12 11:08:52 AM by Catbert
I like Rotpar's ideas for what to put in the welcome PM, but if people are complaining TRS is hard to find or know about then the welcome PM should make some mention of it, what happens there, and that anyone can participate.
The TRS should have an Administrivia page that answers What Is The TRS?, How Do I Bring Pages There?, When To Bring Or Not Bring A Page, How Can I Keep Aware Of Major Decisions Being Considered? (with a way offered to do so, like RSS), Why The Thread Cap?, and Terminology. Either that, or the FAQ sticky in the TRS should be linked from Administrivia and from the welcome PM.
And L Mage, you are not going to convince people to stop using words like "cut" and "rename," no matter how intimidating they are. I don't understand why that's the case, but regardless, what words should we use instead? "Delete" and "change the name"? Those actions need to be called something or nobody can discuss them.
edited 11th Feb '12 11:12:50 AM by ArcadesSabboth
Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.Can we leave the welcome PM topic to another thread?
Also, there are a lot of more important items that should go into a welcome PM - like Natter, How To Use Bullet Points etc - than to how to use a TRS.
Btw, the How To thread for TRS is this one
, but it might need some expansion.
edited 11th Feb '12 11:14:55 AM by SeptimusHeap
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman![]()
The problem with "Cut" or "Rename" proposals isn't so much the cut or rename part, it is that they come into the TRS with overblown tabloid-esque sub-titles. "Simply awful, needs cut", "Rename this now, it stinks". TRS proposals should have neutral title. One advantage of a mod/forum guide having to okay a proposal before it went visible would be they could doom hysterical proposals like that before they enter view. This would help the TRS image of being a hysterical pro-rename/cutting venue. If a proposer can't come up with a neutral line for their idea, then it probably wasn't a good idea anyway and it is a waste of time spending three days discussing before it gets rejected (since I'm assured these would be rejected anyway, lets do it at the start before it causes image problems).
edited 11th Feb '12 11:17:57 AM by CrypticMirror
There is a page for TRS. Here.
It could do with some more details, sure.
Not all threads start with something hysterical like "CUT,CUT,CUT, JUST CUT ALREADY". A "Cut examples" title is not hysterical. I found a "Do we really need examples?" title in one thread, and there is no real difference, regardless of wording.
edited 11th Feb '12 11:21:21 AM by lu127
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - FighteerTalk about an understatement.
XP granted for befriending a giant magical spider!
Can ya blame me? TRS is supposed to be hysterical, so I have to avoid overstatements now.
@Catbert @464: A page late and a dollar short, but I just read that post.
Is Trope Talk actually meant to be the place where you discuss trope definitions? I don't ever go on there, so I don't know. To me, TRS makes more sense for that because if the definition is in question then it might need repair. I don't know, maybe that's the wrong angle to take. I guess Trope Talk is a perfectly valid avenue for discussion what a trope is actually about.
@Cryptic, I really don't see a whole lot of this "hysterical TRS" stuff you're talking about. The evil elites tend to be pretty reasonable and make their case in a pretty well thought-out way. On the other hand, the "I hate renames" crowd tends to come into a thread with a bunch of alarmist hyperbole about how we're "ruining the wiki," and "next stop, Wikipedia" among other slippery slope arguments that don't inspire a whole lot of credibility.
edited 11th Feb '12 11:50:09 AM by Martello
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.I think it is a good idea to encourage the use of Trope Talk to discuss a page. If nothing else, it has no thread cap so you can open a discussion there to ask "should I take it to TRS?" while the TRS itself is locked. Maybe the "locked TRS" message should even suggest that, as long as actual decisions cannot be made in Trope Talk.
Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

Excuse my bad wording. "Proposing an idea" should not necessarily mean you're going to take responsibility for the work it involves. "Adding it to the crowner" which will decide if they will actually be implemented, should be the point where one has to take responsibility.
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer