TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Trope Repair Shop: Does it need improvement? (also concerns Image Pickin')

Go To

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#426: Feb 10th 2012 at 1:42:38 PM

"Fix the wicks" so that people don't repeat the pattern before the wick cleanup. And if you rename, there is no need for the old name to survive in wicks. It's the same like in namespaces.

However, it's true that cleaning up wicks isn't at all helpful for TRS work especially if you mind that TRS decision-making and wick-fixing are two completely different processes that are unlikely to attract the same workforce.

About cleaning up only the wicks, yes, I doubt that these options will suffice on their own in most cases.

EDIT To Add: LouieW's suggestion - like a Herald system for the wiki - makes a lot of sense to me.

edited 10th Feb '12 1:44:06 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#427: Feb 10th 2012 at 1:44:16 PM

Well, I was using "fix wicks" and "clean up examples" interchangeably. Basically, rampant misuse in general.

LouieW Loser from Babycowland Since: Aug, 2009
Loser
#428: Feb 10th 2012 at 2:39:52 PM

Septimus Heap,
I actually was just repeating Arcades Sabboth's Idea 1 here, so I do not deserve credit for that suggestion though it does seem to be a good one.

If we do go with that PM idea, what specific kinds of things do you think we should include in it? Right now, I am thinking something like the following.

I am probably missing something though, so getting some feedback would be appreciated. If anyone is good at writing, posting some draft PMs seems like a good idea to me too.

edited 10th Feb '12 2:47:22 PM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#429: Feb 10th 2012 at 2:44:03 PM

It's still a good one. I have seen - and PM'ed - numerous newbies that really ought to have an introduction to the wiki.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#430: Feb 10th 2012 at 3:00:38 PM

I've ended up walking quite a few people through basic wiki procedures like how to index a page, how to use wiki markup, good editing practices, how to create a works or sub-page, etc. The information is usually out there, but I'm not sure everyone is finding it.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#431: Feb 10th 2012 at 3:07:57 PM

Foremost concern for it is to make it concise. Welcome To TV Tropes is way too much detail.

Identify the most important points to convey to a newbie, no more than three of them, state them succinctly and with a friendly vibe, then end it.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#432: Feb 10th 2012 at 3:12:15 PM

Maybe Welcome To TV Tropes would be better if we split it up. Make it more of a brief index of places to click to get things instead of one huge intimidating page.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#433: Feb 10th 2012 at 3:13:10 PM

[up] The first thing I would think of is Natter, Example Indentation and Namespace but there are more things out there.

PS. Given that this thread is about TRS and not about newbie introductions, should the latter be made into a separate thread?

EDIT To Add: To point at the post I am talking to.

edited 10th Feb '12 3:28:23 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#434: Feb 10th 2012 at 3:49:18 PM

Minor side point, but being able to tag multiple tropes when making a TRS thread would be useful for when there's a whole slew of similar tropes that need to be untangled. Yeah, you can mention them all in the thread title, but it would be useful to have the banner on them all.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#435: Feb 10th 2012 at 5:37:10 PM

[up]It would also be good for any thread that proposes a merge.

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#436: Feb 10th 2012 at 5:40:06 PM

Wow, so here we have a thread discussing a potential change in a central core function about how this Wiki does business, and the only reason I know about it is because someone mentioned it on the Negima thread!

Now, granted given the amount of time I spend on the forums there is probably no good excuse for me to not look at Wiki Talk more often, but it is rare to see threads in this specific talking about something major vs say, asking why there is no Ryan Gosling article, suggesting a Star War name space or complaining about how the pro wrestling pages are organized.

Don't we have a way of making annoucments that every user will automatically see it when they log in? I've heard rumors of such things, but I'm not sure I've ever actually seen it put in place.

So much to respond to.

We link TRS actions to the very top of any page under discussion and to your Watchlist. What more do you want?

Well, I don't watchlist every trope that I think is a good, solid, cool, effective, witty and entertaining trope page that I would theoretically want to leap to its defense if someone proposed a cut. If I did I would be watch-listing the majority of the wiki, and imagine how overwhelming that would be.

I only really watchlist pages that I've created, and therefor have a vested interest in wanting to curate them and keep out bad examples and the like in order to prevent them from going to TRS to begin with. So watchlist doesn't really cut it. Also, most of the people that are watchlisting tropes are in the trope creator and trope repairman "clique" to begin with.

If you aren't even logged into the site, having gone to the minimum trouble of Getting Known, then you have no say in what happens to the site. I'm sorry, I won't even dignify any position to the contrary with a further response.

Well, nice to know that you aren't willing to discuss opinions contrary to your own on this particular issue, but I'm going to respond anyway because perhaps someone else may be willing to listen.

This is precisely the wrong attitude to have. In my mind, TV Tropes does not exist for the sole purpose of those that have a great deal of time and inclination to spend on these sort of things. TV Tropes exists for our "customers" and we need a "customer service" oriented mentality. Our largest customer base is those that haven't gone through the process of Getting Known. However, we should not ignore the fact that they are our main target audience. Fast Eddie says that this place should be entertaining as well as informative.

It is the thousands upon thousands of readers among the "great unwashed masses" of non-registered readers that are the ones that constitute the bulk of the people that will or will not be entertained and informed based upon what our actions are. Therefore we should care very much about soliciting their feedback, just as any other customer service oriented organizations should.

Granted anonymous individuals not logged in should not make the actual changes and decisions, but there needs to be some way of letting people know that their favorite trope or favorite feature of TV Tropes may be on the chopping block. Such knowledge may motivate them to go through the process of Getting Known in order to participate in the process.

A PM every time someone links a forum post to an article you've viewed in the past year?

Again, do we not have an announcement system? Is there a pressing reason why there should not be an announcement made to the entire TV Tropes community, to include our general readership, that a trope has been brought up for discussion that that feedback on the issue is required from the community?

My question is more simple. Let's assume that there will be actions to rename or otherwise repair articles, whether they are in the forums, YKTTW, or elsewhere. How can we make them visible to everyone who might possibly have an interest? If someone can give a real proposal here it would be very helpful.

For starters, make the TRS banner at the top of a page visible to everyone.

Secondly, make some sort of announcement, either by the current announcement system (I've never seen it in action so I don't know how effective it is for these purposes) or by a mass PM to all accounts whenever a TRS thread has been opened, or at at bare minimum whenever a crowner has been created that has the potential of renaming, redefining, or cutting a trope.

Idea 1: Recently the forum got heralds. How about the first time somebody gets known, they receive a herald-like announcement/PM telling them about the forums and the TRS, how major wiki business is done, and a general run-down of how the wiki works? It could include basic guidelines like no natter or first-person, too.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! So many problems would be avoided to begin with and would never have to go to TRS is people knew all the rules and guidelines (not to mention Word Of Eddie policy pronoucments) that govern this wiki.

BTW, TV Tropes Rules And Guidelines would make a very good name for a page, and perhaps even a page that is on the top button for every single type of page. Administrivia may be a witty name, but it lacks clarity and makes it sound, well, trivial.

Maybe a Crowner should be added to the page it is attached to as well as the thread...

I don't like that idea because encourage people to vote without ever reading the arguments set out in the thread.

Using inbound counts and wicks to measure a trope's effectiveness/popularity

Well, for starters we have cut or at least renamed and re-purposed things with pretty high inbounds. Also, inbounds are a dubious way to measure how many people are viewing a page, much less finding the page to be informative, entertaining and worth keeping. Among other things, they don't count how many people stumbled across the page by using the Wiki Walk method or coming in from a search engine link.

Back in ye olden days of the internet, I saw a lot of sights with "view counters" that counted every time someone viewed page. Are such things still around? Would they be an option?

Also, perhaps a feedback form for trope pages and the like? Something that doesn't require registration, but is limited so that any IP address can only use it once. It could ask things like:

  • Do you think this title is Clear Concise And Witty?
  • Does the trope description communicated the defining features of the trope in an effective manner?
  • Do the examples appear to match the trope defintion?
  • How effectively does the image enhance your understanding of the trope?
  • How would you rate this article on a 1-5 star scale in terms of
    • Informative
    • Entertaining
    • Fair and balanced (well, we probably need a better way of expressing that, but basically saying that the page doesn't sound like complaining or gushing, for those page types that are not supposed to do either)

None of these would result in binding decisions, but such a survey would at least help us have a better idea of how much use a trope page is given and what people really think about our pages.

Too many people on our TRS and IP threads try to put themselves in the mind of "hypothetical ordinary user" but they often tend to make assumptions about our userbase that may or may not be correct. Personally I tend to think that some people error to much on the side of Viewers Are Morons, and I'm sure I have my own biases as well. Also, do we really know what our average unregistered reader thinks about thinks like character named tropes Just A Face And A Caption, etc? Non-English words in trope titles, etc. Are they finding it as off putting and confusing as we think they do, or not? I don't want to start a debate here and now on those specific issues, but I'm trying to get people in the "we are here for our customers" mindset.

edited 10th Feb '12 5:53:59 PM by Catbert

Ironeye Cutmaster-san from SoCal Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
#437: Feb 10th 2012 at 5:51:09 PM

Making an announcement for every opened TRS thread would very quickly send the much more important announcements out of the Headlines box. Likewise, sending a PM to every user would just fill up their mailboxes. If you're really trying to keep up on all potential changes, there's an easy way to do it: pay attention to which threads are active in the TRS. Now, I'm all for increasing the visibility of the TRS as a whole, but we shouldn't be spamming the editors about every potential new change when anyone who wants to keep up on that sort of thing already has a place to look.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
LMage Since: May, 2011
#438: Feb 10th 2012 at 5:56:55 PM

[up]

I think he means that threads of major discussion (like this one) should be alerted to every troper. No harm can coming if encouraging more tropers to partake in the forums.

ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#439: Feb 10th 2012 at 5:58:47 PM

Yeah, I disagree about announcing every TRS thread, but this thread is the sort everybody should be able to find and/or know about, and we should make sure all readers know about the TRS. Limiting that to just those who Get Known may not be enough — we don't know how many lurkers would choose to Get Known if they knew of the TRS.

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Ironeye Cutmaster-san from SoCal Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
#440: Feb 10th 2012 at 6:03:49 PM

I'm addressing the response to this:

My question is more simple. Let's assume that there will be actions to rename or otherwise repair articles, whether they are in the forums, YKTTW, or elsewhere. How can we make them visible to everyone who might possibly have an interest? If someone can give a real proposal here it would be very helpful.

That is, this:

For starters, make the TRS banner at the top of a page visible to everyone.

Secondly, make some sort of announcement, either by the current announcement system (I've never seen it in action so I don't know how effective it is for these purposes) or by a mass PM to all accounts whenever a TRS thread has been opened, or at at bare minimum whenever a crowner has been created that has the potential of renaming, redefining, or cutting a trope.

not to opening sentences about the lack of a Wiki Headline for this thread.

edited 10th Feb '12 6:04:47 PM by Ironeye

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#441: Feb 10th 2012 at 6:07:25 PM

Making an announcement for every opened TRS thread would very quickly send the much more important announcements out of the Headlines box.

I was about to say "What headlines box?" but then after great effort, I found the headlines box that was buried between two ads about credit score.

That is what we call headlines around here? Not very attention getting if you as me.

Likewise, sending a PM to every user would just fill up their mailboxes.

Dude, this isn't like this is my personal e-mail account that I use for all sorts of commercial functions and personal communication with friends and family to the point that I would be overwhelmed and bothered by one or two more messages a week. This is TV Tropes feature that exists for TV Tropes use. I'm not saying every new thread on every forum needs a PM. TRS has a limited number of thread slots and we don't get all that many new threads in any given week.

If you're really trying to keep up on all potential changes, there's an easy way to do it: pay attention to which threads are active in the TRS.

I do that. But then again, I'm included in the extreme minority of our editors (much less our readers) that participates on TRS on an almost daily basis.

The complaint that has been made is that decisions are only being made by a limited few that are regular participants in TRS. The complaint has also been made that many people don't really know about TRS. You seem to be saying, "if you don't like it, become a regular participant on TRS." That seems unsatisfactory to me. I think we should be trying to find ways of making more ways to make the existence and importance of a TRS thread visible to everyone, not just those like me who spend half our free time on stuff like this.

edited 10th Feb '12 6:10:55 PM by Catbert

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#442: Feb 10th 2012 at 6:09:19 PM

We get about an average of 5-10 new threads a day in the TRS. That ends with about 25-50 P Ms a week for every user the majority of which they don't care about. That's pretty much spam.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
LMage Since: May, 2011
#443: Feb 10th 2012 at 6:16:36 PM

This is why I advocate for the transformation into a format like that of YKTTW for TRS. The way things stand, a trope is called in and flagged with a small banner, then the forum regulars have it out about what they think is best for the trope. The problem is that do to the detachment of the forums from the main site this "gods are throwing lightning bolts at each other feel" is a strong one, not helped by the fact that if anyone curious troper happens into the thread it's likely they will feel more like they are stepping onto a battlefield then a discussion. The heated arguments are a good thing; they are a expression of the passion many people have for this site, and especially since the tropers are good staying relatively civil and within the guidelines while they do it. But that still doesn't change the fact the the detached nature of the forums, and the sterile feel of the banners hurt and discourage others (intentional or not) from participating in discussion.

Contrast YKTTW, where the entire system is designed to be encouraging and inviting to tropers. We should be working on achieving something like that to get people involved. We need to clearer that we want everyone's opinion.

Ironeye Cutmaster-san from SoCal Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
#444: Feb 10th 2012 at 6:17:59 PM

Think about the PMs from the perspective of someone who doesn't care. "Oooh, I have a new PM! Oh, it's just another damn TRS thread."

In any case I'm not suggesting that anyone interested become a regular participant in the TRS. Rather, I'm saying there's already a convenient list of all topics under discussion in the TRS that can be accessed without ever having to read one of those threads. You can look at the thread list, read only the threads that interest you at all, and then mark the entire TRS as read. Come back in a few days, rinse, repeat. It currently takes almost two weeks to fall off the first page, so you're not going to lose an important thread to the back pages that way.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#445: Feb 10th 2012 at 6:18:25 PM

I sit correct on the rate of new threads.

What about threads with crowners? Threads that result in a decision to cut, rename or redefine? How fast do we get these? Would it really be that overwhelming if we get an occasional mass-PM saying "Trope X is being considered for a cut. Your opinion counts. Please go to This Thread and make your voice be heard."

Also, maybe it is just me, but I average a handful of PM's a year. I think our average "casual user", who we apparently want to become more involved in the process, probably gets on the order of none. I don't think I would feel all that overwhelmed by even a few mass PM's day, and I would feel grateful for being informed about what is going on in the troper community.

LMage Since: May, 2011
#446: Feb 10th 2012 at 6:20:32 PM

[up]

That sounds reasonable.

Anyways if annoying a few tropers with occasional spam is the price for insuring that we are doing everything possible to encourage people to participate, I will personally sift through any and all complaints about the P Ms.

edited 10th Feb '12 6:20:42 PM by LMage

troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#447: Feb 10th 2012 at 6:21:49 PM

there's already a convenient list of all topics under discussion in the TRS that can be accessed without ever having to read one of those threads. You can look at the thread list, read only the threads that interest you at all, and then mark the entire TRS as read.
Yeah, you can't really do that in YKTTW.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#448: Feb 10th 2012 at 6:24:35 PM

The YKTTW is the single thing most detached from the way the rest of the wiki works. It's also harder to follow, and the least consistent format of anything else. The forums at least are consistent in how they work. Making the TRS work like the YKTTW would completely detach it from the rest of the wiki.

If you visit the wiki once a month, coming in every time to hundreds of P Ms waiting for would probably drive the casual user off. The casual user isn't here very often.

edited 10th Feb '12 6:25:09 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#449: Feb 10th 2012 at 6:38:03 PM

[up]Maybe a weekly announcement of new TRS threads with crowners?

That would also filter out thread that are closed quickly with minor changes without a crowner, cleaning up bad examples, removing Real Life Examples, cleaning up a trope description (without redefining it), or threads that end up in everyone but the OP saying "I don't see a problem here" which quickly make a decision to take no action.

It seems to me that the types of things that really cause people to get heartburn, either because they disagree with the action and wish they had known before hand that it was under consideration and there was a chance to express their views, or because they never knew about the change in and get called out for unwittingly using the trope according to a now obsolete usage, are things like renames, page cuts, and major changes to the definition of tropes.

Also, what do people think of my idea of having more "page feedback" options for our general readership? Just nothing pop-up, because those are annoying as heck.

edited 10th Feb '12 6:41:52 PM by Catbert

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#450: Feb 10th 2012 at 6:45:02 PM

That's what the News letter is supposed to be. An announcement of large changes on the wiki.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Total posts: 888
Top