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Trope Repair Shop: Does it need improvement? (also concerns Image Pickin')

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KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#326: Feb 8th 2012 at 1:27:59 PM

But a number of tropers apparently "understand" it enough to cut it. Not to mention that troper H just explained and stated that the description was valid. I agree, Tropers I-Z are in the wrong. But so are Tropers A-G. They are refusing to assist with this just because of sour grapes.

Osmium from Germany Since: Dec, 2010
#327: Feb 8th 2012 at 1:29:30 PM

They can't assist because as tropers I-Z they don't get what this trope is about.

edited 8th Feb '12 1:29:48 PM by Osmium

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#328: Feb 8th 2012 at 1:30:41 PM

Then how are they able to identify misuse except just to agree with Troper A?

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#329: Feb 8th 2012 at 1:30:43 PM

But a number of tropers apparently "understand" it enough to cut it.

You don't need to understand it to want it cut. Being an incomprehensible mess is ground for cutting. The situation you describe is a text book example of why a page should be cut: It's so badly made no one can understand it. Try it in YKTTW maybe. But keeping a page who is so obtuse accomplishes nothing.

Eitherway, talking about hypothetical examples dosen't really get us anywhere.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#330: Feb 8th 2012 at 1:34:08 PM

You don't need to understand it to want it cut. Being an incomprehensible mess is ground for cutting.

Why? In all sincerity, what is the Worst Case Scenario for keeping a nebulous trope?

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#331: Feb 8th 2012 at 1:44:21 PM

I should have phrased it better: "Being an incomprehensible mess no one is capable of figuring out and therefore fixing is ground for cutting.

Like the aforementioned scenario you make. If a page is so bad that 1 out 26 people can understand it, and even he, through a thread, can't make the other 25 understand it, why keep it all? Especially if the one person who "gets it" won't fix it? What's the value in keeping a page no one understands? Cut it, that way it won't cause misuse of valid tropes. If there's a valid trope in there, someone can send it to YKTTW so it can be written up clearly.

It's the same reason we cut stubs or works without examples. If the page is so bad it brings absolutely nothing, why keep it?

Anyway, think we are veering offtopic with this discussion of a hypothetical scenario.

edited 8th Feb '12 1:45:03 PM by Ghilz

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#333: Feb 8th 2012 at 1:53:39 PM

My impression is that he's not talking about a hypothetical. (I'm not convinced he's actually right in his arguments regarding the trope, but that's a different matter.)

Edit: Oh, so it got cut after all.

edited 8th Feb '12 1:53:50 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#334: Feb 8th 2012 at 1:54:08 PM

Why keep it? Okay, I'll use an actual trope as an example.

Go to the TRS page for Asian Gal with White Guy. There, you'll see me arguing several points. First, the insinuation that it's unrelated to the portrayal of Asian women as prostitutes. Second, that the entire point of the trope is a power dynamic and not about the argument that white men and asian women shouldn't be together (which is the case with Where da White Women At?). I argued this and people didn't believe it until I specifically brought up a page I googled which outlined every point I just made. Now, you're telling me that because I just proved objectively that everything I said was true, it's my responsibility and no one else's to curate the page? What sense does that make?

It's not even that I'm unwilling to do it, but I'll be the first to admit that I might not always find time to keep it up. However, there is NOT ONE DOUBT in my mind that the trope is going to get misused again (especially if we don't go back to the original name, which was far more indicative). But even if I accept some responsibility for the page's upkeep, how does it make ANY SENSE to say that because I'm the only one who stepped forward with evidence for my argument that nobody else should bother helping out?

@feo: Not just BGB either. I'm finding myself frustrated in regards to sex/fanservice tropes, because people are either offended, don't have any experience with them to understand them, or don't like them because of how charged they are with certain subsects of the troper population.

edited 8th Feb '12 2:00:16 PM by KingZeal

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#335: Feb 8th 2012 at 1:58:43 PM

But even if I accept some responsibility for the page's upkeep, how does it make ANY SENSE to say that because I'm the only one who stepped forward with evidence for my argument that nobody else should bother helping out?

I never said it makes sense, but you are missing the point:

How do you want to force people to do something they don't want to do? HOW do you want us to make the rest of them step up to follow your lead, when they don't want to?

Yeah, it's a problem, but it's a problem without a solution. So lets concentrate on the one we can solve: people who propose solutions without being willing to do the work for them. Solutions without people to do them should be discarded, because they won't happen.

Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#336: Feb 8th 2012 at 2:02:07 PM

@King Zeal — For the record I agree with you on both Me Love You Long Time and also some of your points on Baby Got Back. The problem with the second one is we still don't have a good workable definition on what it's supposed to be.

But more on topic, what you're talking about is possibly one of the reasons for the feeling of alienation by the silent majority. They see two people who clearly have strong and probably well-researched opinions on the trope going back and forth, punch for punch, and people are intimidated and don't think they can get a word in edgewise. That's the only form of "forum intimidation" I can actually understand. So those people sit on the sidelines watching, and at some point they decide "well, King Zeal is right, the Asian Hooker stereotype is a trope," or the other way, and then they vote accordingly. Those people either don't feel qualified or aren't willing to then do any work on the trope. In that case, whoever is representative of the winning option, often the person who put it on the crowner, should then be responsible for at least leading the charge on the fix if not executing it completely by themselves.

Unfortunately, what often actually happens is that there's some vocal dissenter who somehow gathers support to his side - possibly by trolling other sub-forums for votes, but that's just evil speculation on my part - and his preferred option ends up winning. But he and his supporters aren't willing to actually do anything about it.

edited 8th Feb '12 2:04:39 PM by Martello

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#337: Feb 8th 2012 at 2:03:35 PM

*sigh* Then I give up.

But I'll still support whatever guys do to fix it. Just please, fix it.

edited 8th Feb '12 2:04:07 PM by KingZeal

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#338: Feb 8th 2012 at 2:04:58 PM

One idea I've applied successfully before when working on large wick checkups. You see someone who agrees with you on the thread? PM them, politely ask them to help do the work. You'll be surprised how often people accept. Not always, but it's better than nothing.

Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#339: Feb 8th 2012 at 2:05:48 PM

[up][up]And I should have said it two posts up, but for the example tropes I was talking about, I would be willing to help you enact the fixes. But I can only speak for myself.

edited 8th Feb '12 2:05:59 PM by Martello

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#340: Feb 8th 2012 at 2:07:06 PM

how does it make ANY SENSE to say that because I'm the only one who stepped forward with evidence for my argument that nobody else should bother helping out?

No one has actually said this. This is a strawman.

What we are saying that the tropers who agree with your course of action have a greater responsibility to implement a course of action if the one you argued is implemented. If there are tropers who were not convinced by it and believe it is wrong, they should not be forced (as if we could do such a thing!) to participate in the work to implement it. Even if one of those not convinced is the OP.

What's funny is that this is the exact inverse of what you were arguing earlier, which is that the original poster of the problem should be solely responsible for cleanup, regardless of whether they agree with the final decision! Neither is fair, but then no one is seriously suggesting either.

EDIT: Multiple ninjas!

edited 8th Feb '12 2:09:11 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#341: Feb 8th 2012 at 2:07:54 PM

[up][up]I'm not just talking about the fixes to that page. I mean the problem with people doing stuff to pages they don't understand.

No one has actually said this. This is a strawman.

I recall someone saying that if only one person has a thorough understanding of the trope, then it should be THEM who is responsible for the changes and if they can't do it, too bad so sad.

What we are saying that the tropers who agree with your course of action have a greater responsibility to implement a course of action if the one you argued is implemented. If there are tropers who were not convinced by it and believe it is wrong, they should not be forced (as if we could do such a thing!) to participate in the work to implement it. Even if one of those not convinced is the OP.

Honestly, I'm less than sympathetic to the problem. But, my actual argument is that there should be a party who stays neutral on the issue and fixes it regardless.

What's funny is that this is the exact inverse of what you were arguing earlier, which is that the original poster of the problem should be solely responsible for cleanup, regardless of whether they agree with the final decision! Neither is fair, but then no one is seriously suggesting either.

That last point is exactly what I'm saying. Neither point actually works, and to me, it's insanity to keep using a system when it's shown to not work.

edited 8th Feb '12 2:17:11 PM by KingZeal

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#342: Feb 8th 2012 at 2:08:57 PM

I mean the problem with people doing stuff to pages they don't understand.

Such as? That's kinda vague.

edited 8th Feb '12 2:10:45 PM by Ghilz

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#343: Feb 8th 2012 at 2:23:02 PM

[up]Cutting valid tropes because people don't feel like cleaning it up or figuring out if there's a more precise way of defining it and narrowing it down.

Let me admit, though, that the second issue doesn't happen very often. People have been pretty good about that, but usually for the tropes with a high number of wicks.

moocow1452 Since: Jan, 2001
#344: Feb 8th 2012 at 2:49:53 PM

Can I invoke Pass the Popcorn here, because all of this seems like inside baseball to me.

Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#345: Feb 8th 2012 at 2:51:32 PM

Sure, because that's exactly what I was talking about in post 336. You're like living proof! And it's probably not even your fault. I don't think I understood all this shit right away either. But if you want to become a truly productive contributor, start trying to figure it out now.

edited 8th Feb '12 2:52:08 PM by Martello

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#346: Feb 8th 2012 at 3:18:19 PM

If nobody is willing to clean it up, and nobody can prove it's valid, then it can't be saved. I mean, it speaks for itself in this case.

I agree more work should be done, and yes, if you want have an idea for something, and the idea wins, you should be putting some work towards it. No matter how small. If your idea doesn't go through, you're not obligated to helping, although you can if you want. Sour grapes doesn't apply here unless they didn't vote.

Not everybody wins. How they react after that is completely their choice. But if they refuse to vote, they cannot complain that their option wasn't chosen. It's just a simple matter of participation.

Quest 64 thread
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#347: Feb 8th 2012 at 3:24:31 PM

I'd like to point out that the most commonly shirked work is when there is a huge number of wicks to check. Nightmare Fuel, for example, might not be back in the TRS right now if the wicks had been cleaned after it was renamed last time it was in the TRS.

For the people who hate it when tropes come back time and again and to those who see the TRS as constantly retrying things until they get the result they "want", the best way to keep tropes from coming back to the TRS ever again is to do the cleaning and/or curate the page. It can't guarantee it won't ever be back, but it will make it significantly less likely.

edited 8th Feb '12 3:25:19 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#348: Feb 8th 2012 at 3:26:14 PM

Coming back to this:

Seem like there are phases a TRS thread goes though:
  1. The complaint (the OP) is made.
  2. Consensus is sought that the complaint is a problem that needs work.
  3. Suggestions for solutions are made.
  4. Solutions are discussed.
  5. Crowners are used to establish which solution has the most support.
  6. The solution is applied.
  7. The TRS Thread is archived.
Can we see possible solutions for improving each phase, if any improvement is needed for that phase?

We can streamline the second phase by insta-locking any thread that is created to object to a trope name without providing any evidence.

You shouldn't be able to say "I think this name is dumb" and expect everyone else to do the actual legwork to prove it's broken. Force the OP to gather evidence in advance, and we'd save hella time.

Also: whoever it was that asked how to sign up for Inbound Watch, you can put your name on the chart on that page. Of course, you don't have to formally sign up to help with the project—you can just say "I feel like helping the wiki today!" and start cleaning up a page or two off the top of the inbound links counter. Clean up natter, fix the Example Indentation, make sure work titles are italicized, folderize, split the Film section into Live-Action and Animated, etc, and then put it on your watchlist to curate in the future.

edited 8th Feb '12 3:31:14 PM by troacctid

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#349: Feb 8th 2012 at 3:47:27 PM

I would really really like to just autolock the waste of time threads. I have no issue with people remaking the threads with actual valid arguments, but if the OP doesn't have a real argument I think they should just be locked. It will encourage people to actually think their O Ps through.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#350: Feb 8th 2012 at 4:50:46 PM

Question, do the low usage tropes still count as legitimate complaints?

Fight smart, not fair.

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