Any mod feedback on the proposal outlined here
(originally by Cryptic Mirror, tweaked/added to a little by me)?
I would be willing to make a separate How Crowners Work page that had a description of how to make a crowner though I imagine there are probably other tropers out there who could do a better job than I could.
The following are my general tips about making crowners which I could expand if there is demand for a How Crowners Work page. As I stated earlier, I do not necessarily have expertise on this, so if someone else who does would like to take responsibility, he or she can feel free to do so.
This thread
has details about that process, many of which I am probably repeating here. To make a long story short, most of the time, you can just type in the URL https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/crowner.php/ + [Name of crowner of choice/Name of trope]." For example, an Alternative Titles crowner for Bowel Existence Failure would look like this https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/crowner.php/AlternativeTitles/BowelExistenceFailure. After imputing the right URL, you should be asked if you want to make a crowner. Once you click yes, the crowner should be set up and you can ask a mod to hook it to a thread.
Generally, it is a good idea to wait until there has been a decent amount of discussion (and a wick check if appropriate) about the issue with the trope(s) before making a crowner. Renames normally require at least two crowners: one to decide to rename and another alternative titles one to pick the new name. When the "rename or not" one seems to show a consensus, hollering to have it called is usually necessary before replacing it with an alternative titles one.
Page action crowners tend to be used when there are multiple possible options for fixing a trope (e.g., rename, split, or cut). However, from what I have heard, these days those types of crowners are kind of discouraged.
As for "what is a consensus?" type questions, I think that can be more unclear and I probably do not have the best answer to them. However, in my experience, at least three days of a stabilized 2:1 ratio or better for a crowner (with the option with the biggest ratio rather than most total up votes winning out) tends to constitute consensus *. However, if there is a very small number of votes or if the circumstances otherwise suggest that one should be more cautious, the waiting period is extended. If you are not sure about whether there is consensus, I think hollering to ask the mods is a good idea to me. Also, if multiple options on a page action crowner have passed the 2:1 mark when the crowner is called, all of the ones that are compatible with the option with the highest ratio can be done.
If you ever have questions about making crowners and such, feel free to PM me or a mod about it.
edited 9th Feb '12 10:10:07 PM by LouieW
"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d![]()
It's a nice idea, but I'm afraid that writing additional explanatory pages doesn't help unless we somehow can get people to read them.
The problem isn't that T Vtropes has a lack of explanatory pages; the problem is that many editors and TRS regulars either don't know about them, or ignore them because they disagree (for example, many people are okay with Fan Myopia as long as it's about a show they like; I'm not saying this is bad per se, but clearly adding a new page about this phenomenon isn't going to help anything).
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That should probably go to YKTTW. And the problem with crowners is that there are no usage guides whatsoever. None at all.
Want to know when a quorum is reached? The vote ratio? How long it should stay open? Nowhere it's spelled out.
About dead threads: I'd think of autoclocking (an dpossibly simultaneously autobumping) once the thread hits X days of age since the OP irrespective of activity (or since the a previous clock ran out), and then ping a moderator or engineer when a clock runs out. The moderator/engineer could then take a look if it's worth keeping or lock if it's stale and dead.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanFan Myopia is a page that descibes a phenomena found in fandoms. It is not a "TV Tropes Law Banning Literary References" the way that some people want to use it.
edited 11th Feb '12 7:49:34 AM by Catbert
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Well, some people have made up (arbitrary) standards that they strictly adhere to. The problem is that other people have made up other (equally arbitrary) standards. So yeah, writing some of those down wouldn't hurt.
It's very common to read statements in TRS like "we always do things <this way>", but it's rather hard to verify whether this is actually true, or a misunderstanding or wishful thinking on part of the poster.
On the vote ratio: There is, somewhere (I don't remember precisely where anymore), an official statement that consensus is at least a 2:1 ratio in favor of change, and consensus is required to take action on a page. I'm pretty sure there is also somewhere where it says that crowners are supposed to stay open for at least three days, and at least one weekend day and one week day (because there are people who come only on the weekends or only during work week). I'm not sure that there's currently any hard-and-fast rules beyond those, though.
EDIT to add: Okay, so the obvious places don't say that. But I'm quite certain I've read mod statements saying the above...
edited 11th Feb '12 10:05:01 AM by Nocturna
Yes, 2:1 and three days are the things I know, as well as not counting weekends in the three-days rule and an apparetnly slightly higher ratio (70% or so) for renames. But the quorum isn't spelt out anywhere clearly. 15?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman1000 is quadruple digits, not triple. We can get triple digits on major items easily. The last Nightmare Fuel crowner exceeded that (the current one no, but then most folks don't know it is still happening).
That happened with a headline. Without it, there would be far less votes.
Also, I am not sure if this thread should be kept separate from this one
.
edited 11th Feb '12 11:18:21 AM by SeptimusHeap
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
For things like Nightmare Fuel, yes, you can get triple digits. But you will not find 50, or even 30, people who care whether or not Letat Cest Moi should move to Useful Notes. A requirement like that is a recipe for the vast majority of threads being stalled and actual problems going unsolved because nobody is allowed to do anything.
I'm all for making the TRS more accessible and making sure everybody's aware of it. I'm all for solving any attitude and/or clique problems that actually exist. But we cannot force people to care about problems and that is no excuse for declaring that real problems cannot be solved because nobody cares. That's too extreme.
@Cryptic Mirror: Again, if there's such a huge silent majority of people who hate renames, they can vote. Right now most crowners get about 15-20 votes no matter how long they sit waiting, so in general people are not voting on these things. People who refuse to vote on anything, ever, even though it's 100% anonymous with no consequences, don't get to complain that their vote is not counted — especially when crowners frequently go against a rename already.
edited 11th Feb '12 11:22:44 AM by ArcadesSabboth
Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Part of the reason you have such low numbers is the TRS not being open enough. It actually encourages a clique forming. If you need 30-50 votes, then the TRS would be forced to be more open and inclusive. It is all connected. Just look at image pickin, it's become so incestuous and closed to outsiders they routinely have to do changes on as few as five or six people.
Indeed...
edited 11th Feb '12 11:31:44 AM by CrypticMirror
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Have you seen YKTTW? Nothing says clique like that place. The five hat rule does not stop cliques. It encourages them. The same thing would happen if we said "thirty votes guys". Everyone would call their friends, if only to get the tedious process of 30 votes out of the way.
A crowner gives you the option of voting whatever you want, with no justification whatsoever. You may vote in a way that contradicts the points you made in the thread. You don't even have to post in the thread or make your opinion known. We proposed ideas to open up TRS in the other thread. If people don't care enough, they won't come. We can't bash it in their heads.
edited 11th Feb '12 11:41:46 AM by lu127
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - FighteerYeah the hat thing was an idea that just didn't pan out. If for no other reason there is no way to revoke the hat if a really boneheaded change was made to the description or name. That's one of the reasons it failed. If I had a pound for every time I've wanted to take back a hat after awarding it... One of the few good things about the TRS crowners is that it lets you change your vote.
I still find the YKTTW much more approachable, and I find the names much more unobtrusive there. They just don't draw the eye as much as TRS and that is a good thing. I doubt I could tell you who is the proposer on most of the YKTTW discussions I have been in. The argument is given primacy.
As for the everybody gets their mate to vote, that already happens. A higher level of participation would help combat that since it would make it harder to get enough mates together.
edited 11th Feb '12 11:47:36 AM by CrypticMirror
The TRS isn't closed. It and IP are the first places I got into the wiki and I was welcomed with open arms because I was willing to do the work. What they are is a lot of work and not as much fun to most people as the funny silly bits that people like in the wiki. There's a certain type of person that finds pleasure in doing the technical stuff in a site like this. To do the grunt work and the clean up and the organizing. There is no way to turn average tropers into that sort of person. That's why it's such a small group of people.
edited 11th Feb '12 11:47:31 AM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. DickWe can make people more aware of the TRS and how important it is. We cannot force them to care, or to do the work.
And I'm against any change that would prevent actual problems from being addressed.
edited 11th Feb '12 11:49:09 AM by ArcadesSabboth
Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.I was under the impression that IP was much more open than TRS, but each to their own...
To be honest, I like the idea of a 30 person quorum. 50 seems a bit much, because even if TRS somehow magically became much more 'open,' most people simply wouldn't care. I know I only look at the TRS and IP threads that concern tropes that interest me.
So to bring this back on topic: if we stick a separate TRS and IP link at the top navigation, will this bring in more people? Because bringing in more (informed) people will certainly help clean out the wash of dead threads in TRS.
EDIT: I still stand by my dislike of YKTTW. And I seem to have this thread confused with the other one...
edited 11th Feb '12 11:52:50 AM by Autumncomet
One Piece blog Beyond the Lampshade

@Vidor, if a thread has died for 2 months, look at what was last discussed. If all the actions have been taken, or if a general agreement was reached to do nothing, just holler to the mods to close it (the yellow triangle button on each forum post does that).
If the conversation and/or crowner reached no conclusion about what to do, it probably deserves one bump to see if anyone is still interested in discussing it, before hollering for a lock for lack of consensus.
In my experience, mods respond to hollers even if they choose not to close a thread, often by posting (and effectively bumping) to say what needs finishing.
And of course if there remains agreed-upon work to be done, the thread will only be closed when tropers get that work done.
edited 9th Feb '12 8:21:45 AM by ArcadesSabboth
Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.