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Two Tropes In One: Oral Tradition

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Deadlock Clock: May 13th 2014 at 11:59:00 PM

SUMMARY:

The old Oral Tradition was a medium and several genres merged into one page, and Mythology and Myth And Legend redirected to it. We agreed to split this page.

Oral Tradition has been redefined as a medium in which a work is not written or otherwise recorded in any way. We're now writing new pages for the genres.

(By definition it is basically impossible to trope an unrecorded work, so I assume that nothing troped or used as an example on this wiki can actually be Oral Tradition.)

Still To Do:


THE ORIGINAL OPis here 

1. Acts like/implies all Oral Tradition is really really old. States outright every Oral Tradition trope is from The Oldest Ones in the Book. But this is a medium, not a time period, and of course is still used today. Jokes and rumors, for example, are often circulated this way. Certainly there is no cause to assume that all oral works were composed before writing was ever invented, before 3500 BCE. That's just ridiculous.

2. Makes statements that all Older Than Dirt works have their origin in this medium... which isn't really right. Sure many things that have been written down were, or might have been, circulated in an oral form first. But

  • A. Written works, even Older Than Dirt ones, could have been composed first in writing.
  • B. Unless they're doing an in-depth textual or archaeological analysis, tropers should not assume one way or the other.

3. The list that follows the description isn't a list of material composed in this medium. It's a list of Mythology and Folklore pages. But those pages include works that were composed originally in written form, with no oral precourser (for example, ancient Greek and Roman plays were composed for Theatre, which is a different medium).

4. Lastly, two of the three sub-types of tropes are red links.

In short, this is a medium, not a genre. I want to rewrite the description into something more reasonable, and move the content to a separate Mythology and Folklore genre page.

edited 12th Jun '13 8:27:58 AM by ArcadesSabboth

ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#76: Feb 10th 2013 at 12:50:18 PM

[up]Alright, point taken about the splitting of genres.

I looked at your Myth draft and I like what you wrote, but you left out a lot from my draft that I consider important:

  • links to Sacred Literature and Mythology
  • distinguishing Myth from Legend as being sacred
  • "as a genre myths are not automatically defined as false or untrue. Though myths can be analyzed like fictional stories, whatever reality lies behind them is usually a theological subject, especially when divine figures are involved. "
  • "Non-narrative works about theology and cosmology..." paragraph
  • "Because bodies of myth have huge numbers of authors..." paragraph
  • Cautious Editing Judgement comment

I'd like to combine the two drafts to retain these parts from my draft, and tweak your wording a bit.

edited 10th Feb '13 12:58:22 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#77: Feb 25th 2013 at 8:22:44 AM

EDIT: Thanks to everybody who helped! The Oral Tradition YKTTW is launched and I don't even think I screwed it up.

Since the Myth sandbox isn't ready, what should we YKTTW next?

Lord Gro, what do you think still needs to be done on Heroic Legend to launch it?

edited 14th Mar '13 12:52:35 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#78: Mar 7th 2013 at 6:48:48 PM

Hm OK, well I'm sending Mythology to the YKTTW.

Here it is.

Are we still going with typing the genres as "trope"? Or in this case "trope+index" ?

edited 7th Mar '13 6:52:36 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#79: Mar 7th 2013 at 7:31:29 PM

I'm pretty sure every genre page on the wiki is typed as trope. (Or trope+index.) I may be overlooking some that are just index, but if there are any like that, I haven't spotted them.

(That last sentence brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department.) :)

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#80: Mar 23rd 2013 at 4:43:17 PM

Well, I launched Mythology. In my opinion, Myth And Legend should redirect to Mythology rather than Oral Tradition.

Myth is next. Here is the link to the YKTTW draft.

edited 29th Mar '13 10:20:01 AM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#82: Jun 3rd 2013 at 7:07:47 AM

I am going to start working on this again.

Currently Myth has a "Already Have?" tag with the suggestion that it is too similar to Mythology. I have already expressed my disagreement, so I would like to have more opinions and dialogue about it. Nobody has commented on the YKTTW in a while.

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#83: Jun 3rd 2013 at 7:09:04 AM

I personally would simply ignore that tag. We have already having a discussion about their misuse.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#84: Jun 4th 2013 at 7:23:55 AM

The troper who set it changed their mind. Where do I go to ask for it to be removed?

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#85: Jun 4th 2013 at 7:26:26 AM

Ask The Tropers, or since we are discussing it here, holler.

Or just ignore the tag.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#86: Jun 12th 2013 at 3:30:10 PM

I have two questions:

1. When does the clock run out? All I can see is when it was set.

2. When/if the YKTT Ws are ever finished, can I holler to have a locked TRS thread re-opened? I am extremely concerned that it will be locked before it is finished.

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#87: Jun 13th 2013 at 12:25:22 AM

The clock did already run out. It just wasn't acted on.

As for the other question, I would guess you need a reason to get it unlocked.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#88: Jun 13th 2013 at 7:34:30 AM

How's "the YKTT Ws were finally launched so I can finish this" for a reason?

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#89: Jun 13th 2013 at 7:39:36 AM

Hmm...you want it reopened for the wickwork, yeah? I do not think a thread would be closed before that is done.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#90: Jun 13th 2013 at 9:40:32 AM

Kill It with Fire was locked before it was finished. They haven't done all the YKTTW launches as far as I know, let alone wicks.

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#91: Jun 13th 2013 at 9:42:25 AM

Hmmm...what is to do here, besides launching the YKTTWs?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#92: Jun 13th 2013 at 9:56:06 AM

The to-do list is pinned at the top. ^^^

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#93: Jun 13th 2013 at 10:16:13 AM

Aye, wickwork again. I may help when it comes to this, but I can't really assist with the YKTTWs.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#94: Jun 13th 2013 at 1:38:39 PM

You already have as much as you could, so thank you.

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
DamianYerrick Since: Jan, 2001
#95: Jul 15th 2013 at 7:58:15 AM

Month bump: So what needs to be done to get these YKTTWs taken care of? There was a proposal to change the Heroic Literature not to be so medium-specific, using the title Heroic Legend instead.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#96: Aug 15th 2013 at 12:24:31 AM

I agree with using Heroic Legend.

Also, I haven't seen any activity by Arcades Sabboth since June and the YKTTWs have been dead in the water, too - what's up with that?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
LordGro (Old as dirt)
#97: Aug 20th 2013 at 2:21:35 PM

Arcades Sabboth told me in PM she'll be coming back to TV Tropes less frequently, so it's not sure if she will return to this TRS any time soon.

I think the problem with this TRS from the beginning was that it has been trying to do too many things in one go. Oral Tradition was essentially a big lumberroom index for a lot of different things that had no other place. It was kinda inevitable that the thread has been going extremely slow.

The Heroic Literature / Heroic Legend / whatever complex is in YKTTW, so we don't have to bother about it in this TRS. I plan to rewrite the draft, but I'd rather sideline it until this TRS is closed. What still needs to be done is making Folklore fit for YKTTW. The rest isn't really the business of this TRS, I think.

Edit: Peripherally related: I'd be glad for feedback to my Riddle YKTTW, or else hats for launching.

edited 20th Aug '13 2:37:18 PM by LordGro

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#98: Sep 19th 2013 at 11:43:38 PM

Bumping this. I am not seeing lots of progress here - many YKTTW seem to have stalled.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
LordGro (Old as dirt)
#99: Nov 3rd 2013 at 12:27:51 PM

Just submitted Folklore to YKTTW. Please comment.

LordGro (Old as dirt)
#100: Jan 3rd 2014 at 3:51:43 AM

... I think we can close this thread. It has achieved its most important objective, a new Oral Tradition page that is much better defined and no longer a lumber-room for homeless pages.

We also have a new Mythology index page, and drafts for Folklore, Myth and Heroic Legend. I think the rest is work for YKTTW. Having all the different YKTTW drafts and a TRS that oversees all these projects is redundant and confusing rather than helpful.

Does anybody disagree?

SingleProposition: OralTradition
28th Feb '12 9:47:03 PM

Crown Description:

Should we split Oral Tradition?

Proposal to split this page into the medium Oral Tradition (for works transmitted orally), and the genre Myth, Legend, and Folklore, based on the draft at Sandbox.Myth Legend And Folklore.

Total posts: 107
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