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Deadlock Clock: Feb 18th 2012 at 11:59:00 PM
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#76: Feb 5th 2012 at 3:03:13 PM

You... can, sure, but it's kind of pointless. So long as both are basically in the green we'll do them.

Honestly I don't really care what we do so long as it's not cutting the examples. Cut the page, make it a redirect to Idiot Ball, clean it up, darthwiki fine just don't leave it an exampleless page.

edited 5th Feb '12 3:04:00 PM by Arha

lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#77: Feb 5th 2012 at 3:06:29 PM

I agree they shouldn't be completely cut (which makes the title of this thread a bad one and that's my fault), since it doesn't really work without them. Which is why I had not added the cut examples option to the crowner when I made it.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
DarkNemesis Since: Aug, 2010
#78: Feb 5th 2012 at 8:51:38 PM

General cleanup of bad examples is all that should be needed. Since when did tvtropes become so anti-snark?

EHK Happy Christmas! from EAST ALWAYS EAST Since: Mar, 2010
Happy Christmas!
#79: Feb 5th 2012 at 8:55:23 PM

I'm anti acres of horrible examples and complaining about stuff. Especially when it's badly written.

A friend is someone you trust to help you move. A best friend is someone you trust to hide the body.
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#80: Feb 5th 2012 at 8:57:48 PM

The objection is that it's all or mostly complaining, not that it's snarky.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#82: Feb 5th 2012 at 11:56:26 PM

Let me put it this way: a snarky entry is fine. A whining, downright ridiculous entry that might even conflict with the work in question, is not. Like this abominable example.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Firebert That One Guy from Somewhere in Illinois Since: Jan, 2001
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#84: Feb 6th 2012 at 12:11:52 AM

Don't forget the cute Take That! at the author in the end. 'She didn't use guns, therefore it sucks!' And as another troper already pointed out, it shouldn't even be on the page.

I'm going to try hollering to change the title of the discussion, since it really isn't about just cutting examples anymore.

edited 6th Feb '12 1:33:12 AM by lu127

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
crazyrabbits Crazyrabbits from Mississauga, ON, Canada Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Crazyrabbits
#85: Feb 6th 2012 at 2:52:07 AM

@Dark Nemesis

Since a subset of the troper population decided that there can be no place for criticism or snark (no matter how funny it is) on the site, to the point of trying to kill many AR's and YMMV tropes that can be considered "negative". Why, just a couple weeks back, someone tried to kill a handful of Darth Wiki pages due to "negativity".

I reason that criticism and negativity (when done right) does more to further the goals of the wiki then any amount of mindless gushing. What I am finding more is that several pages have overlapping examples, especially in the DW namespace.

As for What An Idiot, it doesn't need anything more than a periodic cleanup. The examples, by and large, are pretty well-written and highlight silly character decisions.

edited 6th Feb '12 3:06:17 AM by crazyrabbits

lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#86: Feb 6th 2012 at 3:10:02 AM

Really? Take a look at the anime and manga page. Septimus Heap went and axed any and all justifying edits two days ago. S/He did well, in my opinion, and no one has objected so far. Cleaning up those edits has taken a good chunk of the natter on the page off.

But you know what? The page is still impossible to scroll down! Because people need to add every instance of slight stupidity/plot contrivance on it. Also, there are duplicate examples with Idiot Ball. See here:

Naomi Misora engages in her own attempt to track down Kira after he murders her fiancé. Having deduced that Kira needs both a name and a face to kill his victims, she uses a pseudonym the whole time she's in Japan, even when she meets someone who seems innocent, like high school student Light Yagami. As it turns out, Light is the son of a member of the official investigation team, and offers to help Naomi join them - if she gives him her personal information. He is inhumanly persuasive, but even so... You'd expect that Naomi, a former FBI agent who is respected by the world's top detective, would keep using her pseudonym, because she has no idea who or where Kira is and could become his next victim easily. And you'd certainly expect that if she did give her name to anyone, it wouldn't be someone she's just met who's following her around, acting very interested in her involvement with the case, and asking Have You Told Anyone Else?.

Instead she gives Light her real name, even apologizing for using a pseudonym when they first met. Of course, as the viewers already know, Light is Kira, and 40 seconds later Naomi is as good as dead.

This is already under Idiot Ball. Why does it have to be here as well? Not to mention Gundam SEED Destiny, which is already under Idiot Plot, but someone had to list it as What An Idiot as well! While the page explicitely says, Idiot Plot examples stay at Idiot Plot only.

And even though it has barely been two days since the cleanup, a justifying edit showed up right away. So yeah, something does not work with this page. It's basically become: "Idiot Ball but more clattered and specific". For silly decisions, we have Idiot Ball. For silly plots, we have Idiot Plot. We have moments for awesome, funny, and tear jerker. This is a moments page. Why is it not like them?

Darth Wiki is not a bitchingfest. It has genuinely funny pages. The only bitchfests are Wallbanger and DMOS. This fits perfectly there, as a page for fun. If this is moved to Darth Wiki, I will curate it myself.

edited 6th Feb '12 3:29:26 AM by lu127

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
crazyrabbits Crazyrabbits from Mississauga, ON, Canada Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Crazyrabbits
#87: Feb 6th 2012 at 4:01:56 AM

That's nothing. I've seen worse Anime sections on plenty of other trope pages. Anime is prone to it, especially in YMMV tropes. There's nothing stopping you from splitting examples into subpages, nor is there anything stopping anyone from simply making a paragraph that's a glorified "no Justifying Edits, please."

You and I both know that there's no way people are going to follow a page's advice not to duplicate examples elsewhere (as per the case with Idiot Plot), especially given this wiki's userbase. It happens all the time across plenty of pages.

edited 6th Feb '12 4:02:13 AM by crazyrabbits

lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#88: Feb 6th 2012 at 4:12:31 AM

There is already a warning against justifying edits. It's not working.

You and I both know that there's no way people are going to follow a page's advice not to duplicate examples elsewhere (as per the case with Idiot Plot), especially given this wiki's userbase. It happens all the time across plenty of pages.

So? We shouldn't have to be accepting of that. We should try find ways to fix it, not just say "it happens, get over it". It's one thing in moments pages, but this is treated as a trope, the way it is now. While it's not a trope.

And this is not a problem limited to anime pages. The page has already been split once. No improvement. The literature section is clattered too, and that's after we axed half the things on Harry Potter. Five live action series have their own pages, but still the live action section is ridiculously long. Something is wrong here.

edited 6th Feb '12 4:13:11 AM by lu127

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
DiamondWeapon Since: Jan, 2001
#89: Feb 6th 2012 at 5:33:55 AM

[up][up][up]I don't see anything wrong with that example. It's textbook What An Idiot, even to someone who has never seen the source.

Obviously, when you have a page about an audience reaction to characters acting stupid, that page is going to have examples related to other stupidity tropes.

lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#90: Feb 6th 2012 at 5:35:59 AM

That example is not wrong. But it is already under Idiot Ball. The page itself discourages listing things under all stupidity tropes. We document them to the appropriate pages.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#91: Feb 6th 2012 at 12:44:00 PM

[up][up] And unsurprisingly, I just had had to axe several more Justifying Edits. That's really annoying.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#92: Feb 6th 2012 at 12:46:17 PM

Good work on those. However, this just proves they show up immediately.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#93: Feb 6th 2012 at 12:46:52 PM

If "clean up examples" passes, we should make one of those LARGE double % comments at the top of each page reminding that, similar to "no discussion on the main page", if it has to be justified, it's not an example, and should be removed.

The sad, REAL American dichotomy
DarkNemesis Since: Aug, 2010
#94: Feb 6th 2012 at 12:59:11 PM

Part of the problem with this trope/reaction/whatever we call them these days is it's a slanted conclusion; it automatically ascribes stupidity as the cause of the character's decision or lack thereof. Some of these belong under Headscratchers since the Justifying Edit proves the character had solid reasons for their decision and/or it's not all that obvious that the You Would Think: part would solve the problem. I axed 1 Harry Potter example that was just one such example and any other "Headscratcher"-type examples should go as well.

That being said, there's still the problem that this isn't so much an "Audience reaction" as it is a "Troper reaction". I'd support moving either to the Darth Wiki or the Just for Fun namespace, to emphasize that any "complaint-sounding" examples aren't to be taken too seriously.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#95: Feb 6th 2012 at 1:03:16 PM

Actually yeah, from what I remember, Just for Fun would be another reasonable home.

The sad, REAL American dichotomy
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#96: Feb 7th 2012 at 1:43:04 PM

Silly crowner, you're telling us to clean examples and move to darthwiki, but the option that says to do both is at +0.

EHK Happy Christmas! from EAST ALWAYS EAST Since: Mar, 2010
Happy Christmas!
#97: Feb 7th 2012 at 1:44:46 PM

Hey it's at -1 now.

A friend is someone you trust to help you move. A best friend is someone you trust to hide the body.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#98: Feb 7th 2012 at 1:46:21 PM

Yeah, not a friend of Darth Wiki moves.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#99: Feb 8th 2012 at 6:08:18 PM

Crowner looks pretty stable to me. Call it tomorrow unless there's been significant movement?

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#100: Feb 14th 2012 at 5:50:42 PM

Yeah, can we act soon?

As stated before, clean up would mean removing examples that have a justifying edit, and I'd suggest making large blocks of % comment text % stating that if it needs to be justified, it's not an example.

edited 14th Feb '12 5:50:53 PM by wanderlustwarrior

The sad, REAL American dichotomy

PageAction: WhatAnIdiot
3rd Feb '12 1:04:47 PM

Crown Description:

Currently, What An Idiot examples tend to read like Complaining About Idiot Balls You Dont Like. Moreover, the subpages are cluttered and filled with Justifying Edits. The following have been suggested as possible solutions:

Total posts: 111
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