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ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#176: Jan 20th 2012 at 2:15:16 PM

I guess I'm a bit confused about what we're considering "black" here.

HiddenFacedMatt Avatars may be subject to change without notice. Since: Jul, 2011
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
#177: Jan 20th 2012 at 2:22:07 PM

Many of these points seem not to take into consideration the social countercurrents to the things listed. Even something as basic as saying black people are poorer on average is being weighed against programs like affirmative action giving them means to climb the social ladder in contexts individual whites might not have.

Ultimately, the sword cuts both ways, and which is worse is too subjective to claim an objective answer to.

edited 20th Jan '12 2:24:15 PM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#178: Jan 20th 2012 at 2:29:01 PM

Okay...so here we go. I have a lot to say on the subject, but let me start with the list:

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

I don't think this is a norm we should be striving toward. Yes, plenty of white people can do this. Some black people could too. But why does it matter? This is a race distribution thing. There are more white people than black people. If we all interact with 20 people on a day-to-day basis, and the plurality of people are white, then of course it's easier to hang out with a group of all white people than all black. But we don't want to bring black people "up to this level" we want a more diverse society (or at least a society where it doesn't matter).

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

Ok, so pretend you are white. How can you avoid spending time with black people (who may have been trained to mistrust white people as an oppressor)? You probably work with black people and probably go to school with them. If you're talking about a social group where you spend a LOT of time with someone, then most people have this privilege, blacks included. Again, being able to avoid people is not a "privilege" we should be striving toward.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

This one is MOSTLY a class-based argument. Being able to afford something has to do with your own finances (how much money you have/how good your credit rating is). Now, saying that you can't move into a neighborhood because you're a specific race? This is more of a problem. I think black people probably wind up having to pay a higher price to live in a given "white" neighborhood since nobody is advertising, "House for sale FCFS $350,000." This is a problem, but again, finances play a big role in it.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

Neighborhoods (at least white neighborhoods I've lived in) have been WAY more insular over time. Most white neighbors don't know each other. I doubt the black family living in my neighborhood even knows anybody else unless they visit the homeowners association - because nobody else does. Again, though, they may face race-based bias from their neighbors that whites in that neighborhood wouldn't. But whites in a black/hispanic neighborhood would almost certainly face the same kind of bias.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

Definitely a problem. I will discuss this in a later post.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

This is a problem, but not, I propose, for how it might make a non-white feel but because of what it suggests. A racial plurality puts their own race into power more often than people of other races. More white people in power means more white people on tv/newspapers. More white people in existence means more white people as leads in shows - because people identify easier with individuals of their own race. That is the root cause of this issue.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

This is partly a racial problem (ignoring advances black people have made). This is also partly a problem with having a strongly racist past - white people were not as downtrodden, so were more able to make advances. Thus proportionately more white people were likely to make important advances that we read about. The racial problem needs to be rectified.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

How many races are there? We will not cover every race's history in school. Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece, Western Europe, and North America is what we study in the US (mostly; I had classes that explored China to an extent) because that is the cultural path of OUR history. I assume, for instance, Japanese focus on their own history. If we can include more cultural analysis in our schools that would be great, but blacks get plenty of confirmation of their own existence within school materials. Slavery, the Civil War, Reconstruction, Civil Rights movement. And all of these are negative *because our history with regard to them is one of negative treatment*.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

I cannot speak to a racial bias in publisher's offices. I haven't the faintest clue if this is in any way accurate.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

I think anybody who is in a group where they are the sole member of their race has the potential to be marginalized. I'm not sure it applies less to whites than others. A white in a group of blacks I think is just as likely - if not more - to be ignored because anti-black prejudice has been such a factor in the past that many whites consciously try to avoid it.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

Can you? Again, a white person who ignores the only asian, black, or hispanic in their group runs the serious risk of being called out for racism even if it was the content of the message as opposed to the color of their skin that was the problem. I don't agree with this point at all.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

Where these are problems it is an issue of economics (not finances) and not quite as likely racism. If I have a store (let's say a food store) I will stock up more on foods that are purchased more often because that will net me a greater profit. If only 1% of the community is Hispanic, I might only have 1% of my stock devoted to their cultural food because I don't want to have a greater stock of something than will be bought. If I have to cut out part of my stock, that might be the first to go - not because I'm racist against Hispanics - but because that might make the best economic sense. That does not mean that the "white privilege" does not exist in this case, but rather that its cause is not racism.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

Checks I can see being a problem - and that is an issue. Credit cards less so (the credit company will usually pay the vendor and then come after you, so YOUR personal financial reliability isn't something the vendor worries about). Cash? I do not understand how financial reliability matters here, much less race. You either have the appropriate cash on hand or do not.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

What? How do you do that exactly? All kids will have people who don't like them and people they don't like. Violence is a completely separate issue, but a problem that I acknowledge probably exists in regions with high racial tensions.

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

This is a problem. I don't know how widespread actual physical violence against minorities is though. I need to be better educated on it.

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

I don't know about this one. I'm sure it's still a problem; maybe my own perspective is twisted. I am not white, but as I fit school and workplace norms I have time and again been treated as an exceptional student and employee. I get promotions based on my merit; I received attention at school based on my achievements. I grew up in the SOUTH and my teachers never really showed any racism that I saw. I think the problem may be that cultural norms may be different and teachers/workplaces may not be tolerant of those differences, which would be a serious issue.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

I have seen people put all kinds of personal flaws down to race so I will agree with this one.

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

Agreed, though it can come down to a class issue too. When people see rednecks doing these things, "White trash" comes up a lot.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

I don't understand the "powerful male group" aspect. I am not saying this one is not valid, just that I don't understand it.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

Agreed. This is an issue, but it is an issue because of people trying to reverse racial attitudes. If there is a perception of nonwhites being less able than whites, you may have people trying to point out to others that there are successful nonwhites.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

Untrue. I have seen people asking a white person, "Why do white people..." Whites undoubtedly encounter this less commonly, however.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

Agreed. I'm not sure this is such a big deal though. Cultural exposure is a positive, definitely. But people tend to specialize and become good at one or two things and if more cultures isn't one of them then I'm not going to look down on them. People in the reverse situation (at least in the States) do need to know more about white culture because whites are a plurality. A white person living in Japan with other whites would be laughed at by the other whites for not knowing anything about Japanese culture.

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

I can't speak to this point. I have no idea how most nonwhites feel about this despite being nonwhite myself. Personally I don't have any problem criticizing the government or its policies, or speaking about my fear of either.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

This hearkens back to the first two - this shouldn't be something we strive toward. It should be that when I ask to "talk to the person in charge" I will be pretty sure I'm talking to a person. *Their race should be completely irrelevant.* I'm not saying this isn't a problem for nonwhites at the moment (though again, never had a problem with it myself) just that it isn't something ANYBODY should be viewing as a privilege.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

The first aspect is a real problem. The second I have no idea. I wouldn't be surprised if it were true, but I also wouldn't be surprised if civil rights legislation makes it so that a statistically fair number of each race is audited. I'd have to see some sort of study.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

This is the exact same problem as number 6.

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

I think this is mostly a personal thing. If you are charismatic and outgoing, you can feel more into groups. I wonder though if society has discouraged nonwhites from being charismatic and outgoing. Not sure on this one.

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

Ooh I am not positive about this one at all. Being called a racist in an occupational setting is only a few steps above from being accused of sexual harassment. A white person who argues with a black person (everything else being equal - their position, logic of their side of the argument, how vocal they get, how emotional they get, etc) I think might be more likely to be called a racist and face consequences for it.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

I would like someone to explain this one because I'm not sure I understand it. No comment. Yet.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

Turn it around though. White people may agree with white people but black people agree with black people. The only privilege is the majority/minority distinction.

31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

Can a minority not do any of these things with minority writing/activist programs? As for the converse, a minority ignoring white writing, they are only penalized because white is currently the plurality, so there are societal consequences for not being familiar with the culture. Again, I'm not sure this stems from racism.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

Not positive that this isn't a majority/minority issue as opposed to a race issue.

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

Agreed, though this is mostly a problem for blacks and maybe Hispanics, not all nonwhites.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

I think that a white person who worries about reverse discrimination (in, say, affirmative action), faces the same concerns.

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

Agreed, but I think to a small extent. I think it's more that people on the job "wonder" rather than suspect. It's still a problem.

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

As a nonwhite I don't think I have done this except when the racial overtones were not racial overtones but out-and-out racism. And even then I've never treated those situations as being any more negative than other similar situations that were not racism.

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

I don’t know how this is a problem for nonwhites. You can find career counselors or developers and if people at your occupation are getting advice that you aren’t, ask for it.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

Political is a big issue. But 10 years ago I really thought that it would take a huge paradigm shift in this country to ever elect a black or woman president, because a party would have to nominate them first, and being self interested, a party would never nominate a candidate that they THOUGHT wouldn’t win. The others I’ve never had a problem with.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

Agreed. I’ve never worried about it myself, but I can definitely see it happening with other races.

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

I feel pretty sure this is true but would like some firsthand examples.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

Legally this can be a problem because of the decision-maker (the judge or jury might be biased, and is less likely to be biased against whites). Not as much with regard to counsel, because you either have the money for a lawyer or not. I’m curious as to how this affects medical care. You either have insurance/cash or not. I’m not saying it doesn’t affect medical care, just would like someone to explain to me how it does.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

Again, as a nonwhite I’ve never had that problem. Does anyone have a good example?

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

I don’t know. I’ve been in plenty of leadership positions and never had low credibility as such. I may be luckier than most, but may I hear a good example?

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

My response is partly determined by what “attention” means. If it means “acceptance” then whites would have a hard time indeed finding an institution that only let whites in. If it means focus (like a university that focused on studying white people) then, again, this is a cultural heritage issue. And STILL I have not been to a college (I’ve attended 4) that did not offer a black studies course. Specific minorities may have a harder time – there may or may not be a Pakistani history course, but you can’t expect institutions to have a course for every culture.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

I’ll assume this wasn’t literal. “All” is quite unlikely, even if she meant “All in the United States.” So maybe she meant most. And I don’t see a gigantic problem. Art is accepted democratically. If lots of people like a piece of art, it is more renowned. Whites have an advantage, again not due to racism, but because they are the plurality here in the States. If in India they display mostly art that does not testify to white experience should we call them racist?

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

I basically want to refuse to consider this a problem. And if it is, again, this is economics, not racism. Suppliers will make the color that gets them the most money. If a darker tone would get them money they wouldn’t hesitate to switch – they like their money more than they like their racial prejudices.

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

Is this significantly different from numbers 5 or 40?

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

I’m not sure what this means. People tend to approve of a household of two adults of differing gender but same race + kids. Homosexuals have this problem. Single parents (may) have this problem. Interracial couples (one either side; a white married to a nonwhite has the exact same issue as the nonwhite) have this problem.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

Again, this is a problem for homosexuals. I need an explanation for this one. If it is implicit support for the family unit I laid out in 48 it is because of commonality, I suppose. If all racism was erased from the world, texts and materials would tend to still portray most families as that, I imagine.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

I can see this being a real problem even if I have never personally had it.

____________________________________

I would like to point out that wherever I ask for an example, it is a sincere request, not saying, “No way!”

edited 20th Jan '12 2:59:51 PM by Vericrat

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#179: Jan 20th 2012 at 2:40:43 PM

[up]I should point out that that list simply points out privilege imbalances. It does not state whether they are something everyone should have or no-one should have, only that currently some people have them and some people don't. What should be done about them is left up to the reader.

I don’t know. I’ve been in plenty of leadership positions and never had low credibility as such. I may be luckier than most, but may I hear a good example?

Given that it explicitly mentions that it only applies if you have low credibility, I'm not sure how you could have experienced this. In other words, it's basically saying that if you're in a position where lots of people ignore/criticise your leadership, white people can be sure that it's not because of their race.

edited 20th Jan '12 2:46:40 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#180: Jan 20th 2012 at 2:49:02 PM

Maybe that's what the list does (the original context makes that a little suspect) but what the thread has done with it is paint it as a product of racism, and many of the imbalances are simply minority/majority. The Green Party can say of mainstream party members, "You can turn on the t.v. and see your elected officials. Your kids go to school run by someone from a mainstream party. When you ask to see the manager, you're not going to meet a Green Party member." Now, some of the imbalances are due to racism, and that's worth talking about.

EDIT: [up] Which is why I asked for an example :)

edited 20th Jan '12 2:50:13 PM by Vericrat

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#181: Jan 20th 2012 at 2:57:28 PM

@Matt: I unfortunately can't find it exactly but your post reminds me of a quote that said (paraphrasing) "I often find that when I give my students good reason to be skeptical they instead jump to the conclusion that the matter is subjective."

Just because a problem is more difficult than it seemed on first glance doesn't mean that there is no right answer.

@vericrat: I have to say, having not read your post, I don't generally read posts where people try to say something about every point on the list because the particulars of the list don't matter as much as the list format makes them seem.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#182: Jan 20th 2012 at 2:57:58 PM

[up][up]No, I agree that the list says that these are problematic, it just doesn't prescribe how those problems should be fixed. In other words, it allows for the option of removing existing privileges as well as granting new ones.

I mention this because you seemed to assume in your response to point 1 that it claimed POC folks should be able to do that too, despite the impossibility (or, at least, extremely severe difficulty) of such a thing happening, and the unfortunate consequences if it were accomplished.

edited 20th Jan '12 2:59:14 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#183: Jan 20th 2012 at 3:09:32 PM

@Blackhumor My list-reply doesn't need to be completely read. Later as I post I can point to it and say, "check out what I said to point 23." People who do read it will, of course, have a better sense of where I'm coming from.

@Iaculus I see what you're saying. It's just that when you call it a "privilege" it does sound like something that's good for that person to have, so I wanted to point out that it's not like being able to hang out with all white people is a positive and it's a negative if blacks can't hang out with all black people. Because the thrust of the list is that "white people can do these things and black people can't, and that's a problem," or at least I gleaned that. Maybe I was wrong.

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#184: Jan 20th 2012 at 3:16:59 PM

If you've ever been in a room with only people who are different from you (on some socially salient attribute: gender, race, etc.) you'd know it very much IS a privilege to be able to avoid it. Or at least, for most people it is very disconcerting to be in a room with only people different from you, doubly if you're talking about the relation between your two groups.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#185: Jan 20th 2012 at 3:22:23 PM

[up][up]And it is, indeed, a good thing... if you have that privilege.

Just as having six Lamborghinis and a solid gold mansion is kind of awesome, but most wealth-egalitarians won't be arguing that that's something everyone should have. You follow me here?

What's precedent ever done for us?
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#186: Jan 20th 2012 at 3:25:47 PM

I don't know man, I've taken so many classes where pretty much the entire class was Asian.

Perhaps being in a class with white people and being in a class with Asians is fundamentally different, though.

edited 20th Jan '12 3:26:57 PM by ohsointocats

HiddenFacedMatt Avatars may be subject to change without notice. Since: Jul, 2011
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
#187: Jan 20th 2012 at 3:25:53 PM

[up][up][up][up][up][up] It's not about the difficulty, but the nature of the question. "Better" and "worse" are subjective statements.

edited 20th Jan '12 3:27:15 PM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#188: Jan 20th 2012 at 3:26:48 PM

@Iaculus: Actually no, I don't. And I'm not trying to be contrary either, I promise. I just don't think it's good for anyone to be socially isolated with only members of their race; cultural exposure is good for everyone. So I don't think everyone should have it because it IS harmful to those who do. Whereas having solid an expensive car can be good for the person who has it. Now, whites aren't harmed by it, just whites who make that decision because those who don't generally have nonwhites in their activities.

@Black Humor: But I have been and never really felt ostracized by it. I am usually the only person present of my race. It's not a problem *for me*.

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#189: Jan 20th 2012 at 3:28:56 PM

[up]Well, the implicit assumption is 'if they want it, they can have it', for whatever reason that might be. It's a particularly extravagant (ab)use of privilege, not a mandatory millstone.

What's precedent ever done for us?
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#190: Jan 20th 2012 at 3:35:53 PM

I also question the idea of "my race's experiences".

There's a common heritage whatsit for most Blacks in the US, but — I am under the impression that this article is not particularly about Blacks — they are not drawing the line between "race" and "ethnicity". If you have a room full of Asian Americans they don't have all of the same story to tell, not by a long shot. Same with Hispanics. And around here there are a lot of Somalian immigrants, who, despite being Black Africans, do not have the same experience of the Americans who had families who went through the Civil Rights Movement here.

How can we consider "race's experience" a thing without overgeneralizations and, ironically, racism? Because probably the only thing all of them have in common is some thread of discrimination...

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#191: Jan 20th 2012 at 4:37:01 PM

It's not about the difficulty, but the nature of the question. "Better" and "worse" are subjective statements.

Well, broadly, but if I were to say "Hitler was a better person than Gandhi" I think you can say I'm wrong pretty confidently without having to worry about subjectivity.

They're not as subjective as you think they are, is I guess what I'm saying. Or maybe, just because they're constructs doesn't mean they're really subjective in the sense that no opinion about them can be wrong.

HiddenFacedMatt Avatars may be subject to change without notice. Since: Jul, 2011
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
#192: Jan 20th 2012 at 4:42:06 PM

Well, broadly, but if I were to say "Hitler was a better person than Gandhi" I think you can say I'm wrong pretty confidently without having to worry about subjectivity.
I'd say it's a crazy thing to say, but wrong takes a higher degree of objectivity than is implied here.

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
FrodoGoofballCoTV from Colorado, USA Since: Jan, 2001
#193: Jan 20th 2012 at 5:10:26 PM

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group. Untrue. I have seen people asking a white person, "Why do white people..." Whites undoubtedly encounter this less commonly, however.
As a straight white male, I won't claim to have the ability to fully understand what it is to be someone of non-priveledge, but I have noticed this: in general it's a lot less threatening to my emotional state when someone asks me "why do white people..." than when people ask me "why do fat people...".

edited 20th Jan '12 5:12:09 PM by FrodoGoofballCoTV

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#194: Jan 20th 2012 at 5:16:54 PM

I'd say it's a crazy thing to say, but wrong takes a higher degree of objectivity than is implied here.

"Crazy" is stronger than wrong. Considerably stronger. "Crazy" is not only wrong, but so wrong no reasonable person would think that.

How can we consider "race's experience" a thing without overgeneralizations and, ironically, racism? Because probably the only thing all of them have in common is some thread of discrimination...

Are you saying shared discrimination is not a shared racial experience? Because I'm pretty sure that's the point of the phrase.

Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#195: Jan 20th 2012 at 5:32:33 PM

So I wonder what part statistics plays into racial issues like this. Take this scenario for instance:

Matt reads a statistical study from a respected journal that concludes that blacks are 23% more likely than whites to default on their loans. He writes it off as foolish, but then one day is confronted with another study from a different journal that concludes that blacks are 22.4% more likely than whites to default on their loans.

Matt becomes a financial consultant at a bank and occasionally has to make an intuitive decision about what sort of rate to give to an individual seeking a loan. He always checks credit ratings and how much money they have, as well as what sort of job they have, how stable it is, etc. He also notes things such as how educated they seem to be, what sort of clothes they are wearing, and what sort of negotiator they are. No individual item (credit score, clothes, education, job) is all-important, but all go into deciding whether to extend a loan and at what rate to do so.

Now Matt knows that black people are less likely to pay the whole loan back. He can adjust interest rates up and deny more loans to black people and the bank he is working for will profit for it. It's perfectly logical. Matt may have no racial prejudices himself, but statistically, it's unlikely that that study won't factor into his choice.

It's exactly the sort of thing that creates "white privilege."

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
Flyboy Decemberist from the United States Since: Dec, 2011
Decemberist
#196: Jan 20th 2012 at 5:36:15 PM

Such is why I say the concept of "white privilege" and racism are indestructible:

They are self-perpetuating.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."
BlackElephant Obsidian Proboscidean from In the Room Since: Oct, 2011
Obsidian Proboscidean
#197: Jan 20th 2012 at 6:47:12 PM

I'll give responding to some of the things on the list a shot:

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

Being biracial (but most people will classify me as black, as they seem to operate on the dreaded one drop rule), I can't do this one all the time. Both white people and black people have shown distrust, and I can't tell who's going to be distrustful until I spend some time with them.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

As a poor college graduate, I can't do this. But when my grandparents moved to America in the 60s, my grandmother (who was Scotch-English) had to look at houses instead of my (Jamaican) grandfather, because if my grandfather went with her, they'd steer them to the ghetto.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

I can't be sure of this. I'm pretty sure I have to avoid a few places in the south, partly because I'm black, and because I'm the result of interracial marriages on both sides of my family (and not everyone is friendly towards that and the most racist people will generalize based on my facial features). On the other hand, I could move into a black neighborhood. I'm sure most black people are not racist, but I have run into quite a few who would not see me as black and would see me as an outsider (inside my own family, even).

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

I have been followed around in the past. It doesn't happen so much now, but boy does it put a damper on a young girl's self-esteem to realize that people might think she is a thief for no reason other than her race.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

This is a tricky one. I can see black people on television, but there seems to be a bias towards lighter-skinned women. I am a lighter-skinned woman, so you might be saying, "Then why are you complaining?" Because lighter-skinned women are too often portrayed as dumb bimbo video vixens, or stuck up, and that is not the case with all of us. So there needs to be an equal number of dark-skinned women and light-skinned women (maybe slightly more dark-skinned women need to be shown), and less stereotyping of both.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization, " I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

I was always told that the Egyptians were black. Other than that, the history in school always emphasized slavery and the Civil Rights movement. It's good to learn about the Civil Rights movement and the Underground Railroad, but it took me until college to see a history/art course that showed how truly impressive the tribes of Africa outside of Egypt were. And the course wasn't even mandatory, so only people who knew about it and were interested would take it.

It's kind of disheartening when your KINDERGARTEN teacher keeps bringing up the fact that you may be descended from slaves, though.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

I went to a predominantly black elementary school, so I got a good Black History education. (Did you know Garrett Morgan invented the traffic signal and the gas mask? And that George Washington Carver invented peanut butter and ice cream?) However, after I moved from New York to the south, I ran across a HISTORY teacher who had no idea who Madame C.J. Walker was. I know because I had to do a report on a famous figure, and she wrote on the top of mine, "I have never heard of her." Imagine if I'd gone to a school full of that for my whole life.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege. 10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

Unless I lie about my race, I will likely be classified as "African American literature." Even if all my characters are elephants (and not even humans) and my writings have nothing to do with racial issues. As for ten, it really makes reporting racism hard, because someone can always tell me, "Maybe you imagined it." Or they can just say that nobody would be racist against me because I'm so light. Which leads me to think maybe I imagined it, even when the person very clearly was racist.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

The hair thing is important. I do not have the same hair texture as a white person, so I can't use the same kind of brush as a white woman and I can't wash my hair as often (my hair is drier, thicker, curlier and takes a full day to wash and condition).

I can count on finding rap music in a store, but I don't know about reggae. I could probably find it, but I wouldn't expect them to have much more than Bob Marley.

Food: There is only one Jamaican food store where I live and it's about 30 minutes away (when I lived in New York, there was one right down the block). I remember talking with someone about foods we really liked I mentioned I really liked curried goat. The silence on their end was pretty awkward.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

I haven't had a problem with this, but I'm sure other people have.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them. 15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection. 16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

I don't have kids, but my parents tried to protect me from racism by sending me to a 95% black school for elementary school. (It didn't really work.)

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color. 18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

My parents were pretty strict about discipline. Maybe this is why. My other relatives advised against doing certain things for fear of looking "suspect." This is kind of why I edit posts a million times, to try and get all the spelling errors, even though no one can tell you're black on the Internet.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

If I had a dime for all the times someone said I sounded just like a white person...

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

This only happened once, but someone said, "You're black, what do you think of this?" (I forgot what "this" was) Another person said, "But she's half-Jamaican." The first person responded with, "Well, that's still black."

Awkward.

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

I probably can't, especially if someone knows my mom is not from this country. I could in college, though, because that was what all the cool kids were doing.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

Depends on the place, really. But where I live right now, no, I can't be sure of that.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

Not sure about this.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

I can buy black Barbie dolls, I guess. I don't know about the other things.

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

It really depends on the people. I could be held at a distance or out-of-place in either a white group or a black group, really.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

I don't know. It might be different in the art world, where I plan to work.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

This could go wrong several ways:

  • Someone could say, "Oh, race doesn't matter. Why does this bother you?" Or, they can say that racism is over because we have a black president.
  • Someone could say, "I think you're just imagining things. You're being too sensitive/politically correct."
  • Someone could say, "How could you face racism? You're lighter than most white people?" Or worse, "Why are you complaining? You get skin color benefits, so just deal with it." (Someone has said that second one, by the way.)

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

I hear people talking about "black woman ass" all the time. I have also been made aware, by both black people and white people that I smell differently than both of them. I have worried that if I was too assertive or confident, I would come off as either the "attitudinal, angry black woman" or the "light-skinned bitch who thinks she all that."

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

I will always worry if I got something only because of affirmative action, my skin color, or both. Even though I'm pretty sure I'm well-qualified for whatever job I went out for. It's just an irrational fear, in my case.

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

I kind of have a "worrying about race and skin color" problem. And an over-analyzng problem.

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

I think I could, because I don't think that matters in art.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

I thought about writing country-reggae songs. I figured the fact that I was black would make me stand out. Then I saw Confederate flags in a few country music videos and rethought that idea. Also, country is kind of hard to cross with reggae.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

Probably not.

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

Probably. Although, if they were doing something stupid like that club that let light-skinned women in for free, I wouldn't set foot near it, because that's just making the problem worse. It's just reinforcing the colorist ideas.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

I've needed medical help and it didn't interfere, but I don't know about the legal part.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

I've been excluded for being black and for being part white. It could go either way, and it really depends on the beliefs of the people involved.

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

I cannot be sure that my race is not the problem. I also cannot be sure that my skin color is not the problem, if I'm in front of people who see light-skinned women as brainless sex objects, or people who think I coasted on skin color (it's happened before, in school).

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

See comment on #8 about the African history/art college courses.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

"That's pretty white of you?" Really? (Okay, nobody really says this much, but still.)

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

"Flesh" colored bandages don't blend in with my skin. I'm yellowish-beige.

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

Not sure. I haven't settled down yet.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

Depends on the place.

I skipped some because I wasn't sure how to respond to them (they didn't really apply to my life).

edited 20th Jan '12 7:00:56 PM by BlackElephant

I'm an elephant. Rurr.
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#198: Jan 20th 2012 at 6:47:58 PM

Are you saying shared discrimination is not a shared racial experience? Because I'm pretty sure that's the point of the phrase.

Yes but that's shared by many, many groups and is about the only thing they have in common.

If we go by the logic of "racial" history, my history is not being taught in schools either. I think world history is something that needs a good going over at school, especially because of the US's diversity, but if we're splitting up the "experiences" groups of people, one into the "oppressed" and one into the "oppressors", well, that doesn't make for good history and ends up marginalizing everything about the "oppressed" except for their oppression.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#199: Jan 20th 2012 at 7:17:24 PM

Okay, stop.

I've noticed several people doing point-by-point counterpoints to the list in the OP. I'm glad that people are sharing their own individual experience "on the ground" as it were. But....

I'm uncomfortable with what I'm perceiving to be a "well, I can either list exceptions to this point, or I can say I haven't seen proof of it personally. Hence it is false."

It isn't.

edited 20th Jan '12 7:25:53 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
BlackElephant Obsidian Proboscidean from In the Room Since: Oct, 2011
Obsidian Proboscidean
#200: Jan 20th 2012 at 7:23:57 PM

[up] I wasn't listing counterpoints, though. I was saying that a lot of what the list said was true, and that I had experienced it.

I'm an elephant. Rurr.

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