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TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#151: Jan 20th 2012 at 9:24:47 AM

Thanking people for not being horrible human beings seems like a really good way to lower the bar for common decency.

Or..consider it this way Gwirion, We're not thanking them for treating us they way we deserve to be treated. We're thanking them for having the courage to improve. It also giving them incentive to keep trying, that their effort is not in vain.

Consider this, clear blue sky and sunshine are things that are common to living on planet Earth. And yet, I thank God that I am alive to see it and enjoy it.

In other words, appreciating the little things usually has the opposite effect of minimalizing or trivializing it.

Maybe the key to humanity's continued evolution is the realization that it is not our ability to condense whole libraries to a disk, or our ability to fly to the stars, or the fact that we can grow food in the middle of the desert. It's the little things, our capacity for empathy, our capacity for courage, our innate sense of fairness; it is those things that have seen us through many millenia and they will see us through whether the Earth ends, or whether we sprad to the stars.

edited 20th Jan '12 9:28:53 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Gwirion Since: Jan, 2011
#152: Jan 20th 2012 at 9:34:44 AM

Honestly, it's a little early in the day for me and I have no idea what you just said means, but until you actually encounter white people who want to be thanked for doing the bare minimum to not be racist shitheads, you may want to reserve your judgment. In any case, I have an inkling that any decent person would consider it an embarrassment to be thanked for something like that.

edited 20th Jan '12 9:35:19 AM by Gwirion

You are a blowfish.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#153: Jan 20th 2012 at 9:41:37 AM

That right there is the problem on both sides. As the OWS and Abortion debates taught me, the easiest way to lose an ally is to go "Yeah okay, you have a point, but so what?" And the thing is, I've read enough of Humor's posts to know that's not what he was trying to say.

Eh, except the reason I wasn't saying "you have a point, but so what?" is that I wasn't trying to say "you have a point" at all. Sometimes people can just be wrong, and sometimes it's valuable to tell people that they are wrong even if they're not going to listen. Because, they're not the only people reading this thread.

What I was saying is that DG's resentment of minorities getting special treatment was not in accordance with the evidence. Yes it can SEEM like there's more scholarship money out there for minorities because only minority scholarships are explicit about excluding people. But the whole point they're there is that white people get such a big implicit bonus from the color of their skin.

I should say though, that I actually don't doubt that DG specifically got less scholarship money than the average person, because if you read the study most of the bias towards whites is due to scholarships for sports or majors or careers or religions (and so on) more common to white people. And the reason SOME of these things (especially the sports) are more common among white people is that they're only played at all among RICH white people. I'm not sure if she specifically had a disadvantage but I wouldn't be surprised if she did; white privilege is really more of an aggregate thing than an individual person thing.

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#154: Jan 20th 2012 at 9:45:14 AM

@Gwirion: The problem is that not being racist (that is, ACTUALLY not being racist) is the minimum for being a decent human being according to a more strict morality than most people share. It SHOULD be the minimum for being a decent human being, but until it IS it's totally reasonable to thank people for it.

Gwirion Since: Jan, 2011
#155: Jan 20th 2012 at 9:55:43 AM

Big thanks to everyone who has not tried to lynch me, gas me, or put me in a labor camp or on a plantation for my ethnic background, then. You guys rock.

Yup, sounds just as ridiculous as I thought it would.

Thanking people for actively working to undermine racism is one thing, but to be grateful that people don't engage in something that they should rightly revile... No, man.

You are a blowfish.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#156: Jan 20th 2012 at 9:56:25 AM

[up] No, I get what Gwirion is saying. It's a version of what blacks go through with the whole "You're so well spoken" stuff.

But like I said Gwirion, there are differences. If I met you face to face and I just blurted out, "Y'know Gwirion I think you're cool." You say, "Well, gee Starship, thanks". "Yeah, man. You're totally not a racist fuckhead." I could well and truly understand your revulsion.

So again, we need to separate the group, and the individual. I used to get furious when someone made a "You sound so educated" comment. But when I look at the clear numbers regarding blacks with degrees, let alone advanced degrees, I'm forced to say I understand.

Also, Gwirion, you have to understand, sometimes a compliment isn't about low expectations. It's about being grateful. That's all.

I wouldn't necessarily shake your hand and give you a medal for treating me as you would any other troper. But would you be so offended if I said, "Y'know Gwirion, you're one of the few people I've come across who treats me like just me. And I appreciate it."??

It was an honor
Gwirion Since: Jan, 2011
#157: Jan 20th 2012 at 10:01:48 AM

That's totally fine - but then, the tone is one of appreciation rather than gratitude, and that makes a difference to me. That said, we probably shouldn't derail this further.

You are a blowfish.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#158: Jan 20th 2012 at 10:02:48 AM

but I wouldn't be surprised if she did; white privilege is really more of an aggregate thing than an individual person thing.

I think that's all she wanted to hear Humor. I got scholarship's specifically for being black, I don't deny it, nor am I ashamed of this. But even still, I had to beg, plead, and steal to pay for school (let's not even talk about the loans).

Your point was correct, but so was hers. Your (completely) valid point still stands and loses nothing by saying that she is correct.

I read nothing that suggested she resents her own brother for getting help. She's pointing out that in trying to offset the advantages of white people as a whole, it's hurting significant numbers of white people, white people who we'll need in our ongoing fight to crush institutional white privilege.

Edit: It's not a derail Gwirion. The discussion of white privilege has been marred precisely because points like yours too often get tossed aside.

As Raven so expertly stated, we need to adjust our tactics to the changing face of our enemy. It costs nothing to make it clear that we don't think whites have performed a circus trick by being decent human beings, but that we appreciate their decency nonetheless.

edited 20th Jan '12 10:05:41 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#159: Jan 20th 2012 at 10:36:07 AM

As Raven so expertly stated, we need to adjust our tactics to the changing face of our enemy. It costs nothing to make it clear that we don't think whites have performed a circus trick by being decent human beings, but that we appreciate their decency nonetheless.

This. As others have pointed out, its human nature to A: pigeonhole people based on appearance and B: seek out those who resemble us...working against these tendencies (especially when things are so touchy, like they are over the issue of racial prejudice) takes effort. It's nice to hear that said effort is appreciated.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Gwirion Since: Jan, 2011
#160: Jan 20th 2012 at 10:45:43 AM

As others have pointed out, its human nature to A: pigeonhole people based on appearance and B: seek out those who resemble us...

Evidence for that, please?

It's not a derail Gwirion. The discussion of white privilege has been marred precisely because points like yours too often get tossed aside.

Very well, though I don't think I have anything else to add to my point.

edited 20th Jan '12 10:46:26 AM by Gwirion

You are a blowfish.
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#161: Jan 20th 2012 at 10:52:45 AM

What are these religions and majors that white people are getting scholarships for?

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#162: Jan 20th 2012 at 10:55:11 AM

See, I don't think that acknowledgement is such a good idea, because it would still serve to draw attention towards race. The more people talk about race (even if it's meant to combat racism), the more people will think about race. The more people think about race, the more they'll pay attention to other people's race. And the more they pay attention to race, the more likely they are to make racist judgements.

Ideally, we should talk about race as little as possible, treat it as completely superficial and unworthy of serious discussion. If we can condition society (particularly new generations) not to think about race, then racism will vanish from people's thoughts as well.

Gwirion Since: Jan, 2011
#163: Jan 20th 2012 at 10:59:44 AM

Not thinking about it is the privilege of those whose race isn't discriminated against >_>

You are a blowfish.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#164: Jan 20th 2012 at 11:09:47 AM

[up]Word. Failing to discuss something is a good way to maintain the status quo, and the status quo, as is, is not exactly ideal for everyone. I mean, half the problems of prejudice come from unquestioned assumptions and silence about injustice.

edited 20th Jan '12 11:11:12 AM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#165: Jan 20th 2012 at 11:24:18 AM

Oh, if someone else makes an issue of it, then you've got no choice but to talk about race in order to counteract them. But I get tired of how, if someone from a minority race becomes successful at something, lots of people are gonna go on and on about what they must have had to overcome, how they're a sign that society's becoming less bigoted, how they're a role model for other members of their race, and so on. That sort of behavior just encourages people to see a member of a race first and a person second.

kyfhv Since: Aug, 2011
#166: Jan 20th 2012 at 11:32:49 AM

I really don't see the problem with discussing racism. It exists, and is everywhere. If it's not discussed, how do we end/reduce it?

What if people didn't discuss labour reform in the 1900s? What if urban waste and disease prevention weren't discussed? Would society's problems magically go away?

That sort of behavior just encourages people to see a member of a race first and a person second.
What? Wouldn't racism, not discussion, cause people to be viewed as a race rather than people? Slavery, for example. Southerners argued they were property, not people. But now, because racism is less rampant, they are viewed as people.

edited 20th Jan '12 11:39:28 AM by kyfhv

Gwirion Since: Jan, 2011
#167: Jan 20th 2012 at 11:41:29 AM

Oh, if someone else makes an issue of it, then you've got no choice but to talk about race in order to counteract them. But I get tired of how, if someone from a minority race becomes successful at something, lots of people are gonna go on and on about what they must have had to overcome, how they're a sign that society's becoming less bigoted, how they're a role model for other members of their race, and so on. That sort of behavior just encourages people to see a member of a race first and a person second.

I don't like how that's your example of what perpetuates racism as opposed to things like offensive stereotypes, token characters, political disenfranchisement, sparser job opportunities, police bias, backhanded compliments (such as the one about eloquence Starship alluded to earlier), racists trying to justify their stance by quoting statistics while ignoring their socioeconomic context, etc.

You are a blowfish.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#168: Jan 20th 2012 at 11:57:25 AM

And, see, those are cases where "someone else makes an issue of it" and you need to respond with an equally strong statement to counteract them. However, I think there are a lot of other times where people will bring up someone's race, not as a rebuttal to racism, but simply because they think it's worth mentioning.

Yeah, that may not be as harmful as the stuff you mentioned, but the thing is that if you can prove someone is furthering racial stereotypes, disenfranchising people, or engaging in other such behavior, most people will agree that what they're doing is wrong. So I don't feel as much a need to speak out about it, 'cause it seems like the vast majority already agrees with me.

However, bringing up race unnecessarily seems to be accepted by society. It's done all the time, even by well-meaning non-racists, and no one seems to be bothered by it, even though it can lead to the more negative behaviors you mentioned. To use a somewhat clunky metaphor, if racists are people launching nuclear bombs, than people who draw too much attention to race are the ones who sell plutonium on the open market. The former is definitely the real problem, but you'll never really get rid of it if you don't take care of the latter as well.

To give a specific example of what I'm talking about, I remember an episode of Family Guy where Cleveland (the only one of the Main Characters who's black) spends some time thinking about whether he should get back together with his ex-wife. Sounds all right so far. Then he refers to this as "black guy thinking time". Do I really need to explain what's wrong with that?

edited 20th Jan '12 12:01:39 PM by RavenWilder

Gwirion Since: Jan, 2011
#169: Jan 20th 2012 at 12:03:35 PM

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, since I don't believe that acknowledging someone's struggles as a minority perpetuates racism. Rather, it makes us think about why we have allowed our society to degenerate to such a point at which those struggles are necessary for people to overcome.

To give a specific example of what I'm talking about, I remember an episode of Family Guy where Cleveland (the only one of the Main Characters who's black) spends some time thinking about whether he should get back together with his ex-wife. Sounds all right so far. Then he refers to this as "black guy thinking time". Do I really need to explain what's wrong with that?

You need to explain how that's in any way similar to what we've been talking about. Are you considering this positive feedback concerning someone overcoming societal struggle because black men thinking is otherwise a rare occurrence? I don't get it.

edited 20th Jan '12 12:06:39 PM by Gwirion

You are a blowfish.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#170: Jan 20th 2012 at 12:13:07 PM

It's a case of bringing up someone's race when said race was not relevant to the subject at hand. It's giving race more attention than it needs or deserves, and so leads people to think of others in terms of their race, a mindset that leads to all sorts of problems.

Gwirion Since: Jan, 2011
#171: Jan 20th 2012 at 12:18:34 PM

People usually don't bring up race for the hell of it. In this instance, it's brought up as part of a poor pseudo racist joke. It was entirely gratuitous. It's not in the same ballpark as someone saying "Nelson Mandela struggled because of his race."

You are a blowfish.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#172: Jan 20th 2012 at 12:26:36 PM

@Gwirion and Raven - As is often the case, the both of you are correct; one point doesn't automatically preclude the other.

Part of the issue we're getting into here is motive. For every solution we come up with, it can be used for good or bad. And motive is perhaps the most individual characteristic there is.

Like I said, I've reached a point where I can guage where the eloquence compliments come from. Some are dicks who think all black people are obligated to sound like a rap video (in a nice bit of irony, I get this particular bit of racism by FAR from other blacks). Then, there are others who are complimenting as they would a white guy who's well-spoken. There are some who are simply ignorant; they've only encountered a certain type and class of black person, and simply never thought that they aren't all alike.

So again, we have to be mindful that it's a case-by-case basis. To look at Jackie Robinson as just another baseball player, completely ignoring the context of his race would be utterly contemptible, and an arrogant disrespect not only to the magnitude of his accomplishment but to the man himself and color-barrier breakers of every stripe.

Then again, it would be silly if someone suggested that David Ortiz's number should be retired by the Red Sox because he is a minority ballplayer, rather than because of his achievements as a ballplayer, period.

It was an honor
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#173: Jan 20th 2012 at 12:30:13 PM

Saying Nelson Mandela struggled because of his race is just fine-and-dandy, because fighting against a racist institution is his big claim to fame.

But take for example when Barack Obama was elected U.S. President; there was all this fanfare about how he was the first (half-)black President of the United States; it was all anyone was talking about. Unless you feel that his race is what got him elected (I don't, by the way), than all that talk about his race is beside the point, irrelevant. People kept talking about how this was a sign of how far America had come in terms of race relations, but if they really wanted to show how far we'd come they would have reacted to a black person being elected President with complete indifference. By treating his election like it was about race, they were actually furthering the racist mindset.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#174: Jan 20th 2012 at 12:51:18 PM

Well put Raven. But, I think you're expecting a bit much of people. For some people, like myself, Obama's race was non-issue.

But, sorry, it's a little naive to think that race has nothing to do with it. And to ignore that his election really does represent a kind of C Mo A not only for the United States, but for Western civilization.

Consider this, Obama's birthplace has been in dispute since before, during, and after his election. You have folks that have cheated on taxes, signed anti-civil liberties bills, abused their spouses, and have even been members of the Ku Klux Klan and nobody kicked up that kind of fuss.

Like I said, we can acknowledge that we are not where we want to be, while still working to get to where we want to be. We can acknowledge how far we've come and still acknowledge we have a ways to go.

It was an honor
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#175: Jan 20th 2012 at 1:57:41 PM

It's a case of bringing up someone's race when said race was not relevant to the subject at hand. It's giving race more attention than it needs or deserves, and so leads people to think of others in terms of their race, a mindset that leads to all sorts of problems.

Race is ALWAYS relevant to the subject at hand. Or at least, for black people race is always relevant. The ability to ignore race is a privilege of not having to face racism, just like the ability to ignore money is a privilege of having enough of it.

So it's NOT irrelevant to point out that Obama was the first black president. Because, y'know, he IS the first black president and that DOES say something about us as a country. It says we used to be bad at this not-being-racist thing, but we're getting better. It says that, although Obama definitely had some prejudice against him due to his race, it is no longer great enough to outright prevent him from gaining even the job that is most susceptible to prejudice.

And of course, Obama CONTINUES to face prejudice in office. There's LOTS of rumors about him being "secretly Kenyan" or "secretly Muslim" or similar kinds of nonsense, rumors that are not irrelevant to his polling numbers or his ability to get the support of the country behind him.

Neither Obama nor any other black person can escape race, because racism is not nice enough to give you days off. I think the least we can do is acknowledge that he was at a disadvantage when he wins despite it.


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