TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

White Privilege

Go To

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#1626: Jun 2nd 2012 at 12:28:33 PM

This is more simple than you are making it out to be.

For one thing, it depends on what places said company reaches out to for hiring candidates. I mentioned before trade and career fairs brought into more underprivileged areas. Even if the company's ideal candidate is someone with a certain personality/skill/look, constantly hiring from the same pool of demographics every time is inevitably going to create an exclusive and segregated environment, which under the law of bias, will rapidly snowball into subtle forms of discrimination. It's not that hard to find ways to broaden a candidate search. This is one of the things that I have to do when I try and recruit students for the college I work in. I not only have to consider ideal criteria, but a number of X-factors that can improve diversity and new ideas.

edited 2nd Jun '12 12:29:34 PM by KingZeal

drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#1627: Jun 2nd 2012 at 12:31:08 PM

@Zeal: I know. I was intentionally using a simple example to highlight how complicated things actually are. Even in a relatively simplistic example like the one I used, there are a lot of ifs and possiblys and we-just-don't-knows.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#1628: Jun 2nd 2012 at 12:33:49 PM

Yeah, but there are lots of ideas for solutions floating around. None of them are absolutely perfect, because all of them can only attack one part of the problem at a time.

Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#1629: Jun 4th 2012 at 11:12:43 AM

Let's look back a bit. Like 1628 posts back. There are some things I don't understand on this list, despite being a minority myself.

Let me be clear that these are things I want clarified because I have not personally witnessed them. I'm not denying the existence of a disadvantage existing to poc, I am asking for clarification as someone who sees issues with these points.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

Being Middle Eastern myself, I can't say I never received reinforcement that people of my race existed. Blacks have entire units on slavery and discrimination and civil rights. Hispanics and East Asians are probably the most marginalized here, but there's the Mexican-American War and World War II, respectively.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

Never had this problem. I've always felt that there'd be social consequences for ignoring the only person in a group belonging to a certain race, even it was the content of the message instead of the color of the skin that made you want to ignore it.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

I have no idea what this means.

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

I've always felt that being called a racist at work is one step above being accused of sexual harassment. So I really figured that all things being equal in the argument (like aggressiveness displayed, tone of voice used, content of the argument), the side most likely to be called racist would be in more trouble.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

This is another I flat don't understand. Can someone help me with this?

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

How does race work against you when needing medical help? I legitimately have no idea here.

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

If this is not the same as numbers 3 or 4, I would be happy to hear what it means.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

This is another I simply don't understand.

Again, I am not denying the existence of institutionalized racism, or that past legal racism has created problems for poc, or anything like that. I legitimately do not understand the points I brought up in this post, and would very much like them explained to me.

edited 4th Jun '12 11:13:06 AM by Vericrat

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#1630: Jun 4th 2012 at 11:33:02 AM

Being Middle Eastern myself, I can't say I never received reinforcement that people of my race existed. Blacks have entire units on slavery and discrimination and civil rights. Hispanics and East Asians are probably the most marginalized here, but there's the Mexican-American War and World War II, respectively.

It's more like this:

  • Have you ever heard of the Red Summer of 1919?
  • How about the Censored Eleven?
  • Do you know where the tropes about Black people and fried chicken, or watermelon, or large penises came from?

I sure didn't—not once in my entire life—until I went to college and specifically had to seek out a class on Black history. Kids are specifically taught things like American History (Revolutionary War, Civil War, etc.), European History (The Persian/Greek War, the History of Rome, etc.) but relatively nothing about other races. I noticed this being a problem when I was in college and group of my peers and I needed to do an hour-long presentation on black art and culture and none of us (including several Black people in my group) knew anything about it. In fact, we knew more about Japanese history, because we'd watched and studied enough Anime to pick up on things.

Further, it creates culture identity issues. When I look back on things, I saw a lot of African-American children (and those from other races) reach out to other cultures for an identity, because things like ninjas and vikings and knights sound much cooler than naked primitives with spears—even though that doesn't even describe 1% of what our history was.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

As I said, I intentionally noticed that people tended to ignore/talk down to other black people when I first joined the internet back at the turn of the century. I kept my race secret for more than a year and when I finally "came out", so many people were shocked—SHOCKED—that I was black.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

I have no idea what this means.

If you're Middle Eastern, it's common for Americans to ask you why you make women cover themselves up, or why you think you'll get 40 virgins by blowing yourself up.

If you're Black, it's common for people to ask why Black people talk so loud, or why Rap music is so vulgar, or why Black people do so much crime...etc, etc, etc.

I've always felt that being called a racist at work is one step above being accused of sexual harassment. So I really figured that all things being equal in the argument (like aggressiveness displayed, tone of voice used, content of the argument), the side most likely to be called racist would be in more trouble.

Depends. Case in point, someone I knew was accused of sexual harassment at work, and my boss brought it up in the office so all of us could have a good laugh about it. Nothing about it was ever mentioned again.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

This is another I flat don't understand. Can someone help me with this?

Minorities that start asking for raises are more likely to be transferred/laid off than other races, I believe. Not sure about that one, to be honest.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

How does race work against you when needing medical help? I legitimately have no idea here.

Doctors tend to push any sort of drugs they want on patients that don't know any better and are unlikely to complain/sue. That usually means minorities moreso than Whites.

Or at least, this is what my pharmacist cousin constantly complains about.


Don't have time for the rest.

Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#1631: Jun 4th 2012 at 12:06:36 PM

First of all, thanks for the info.

Secondly, wow, let me show you just how entrenched this is, because I was typing this out in response:

WRT 8, you're right I hadn't heard about those events. I don't know what the solution is - because I think it's really about resources that go into teaching world history and cultures. We do a decent job of following our nation's cultural path - Babylon, Greece, Rome, Europe, Americas. Is it time constraint that we don't follow other cultures as closely? Is it understandable that we focus a great deal more on our own?

But the thing is that America is supposedly the melting pot of diversity. Why is "white European" our own cultural path? There are plenty of blacks and Hispanics in the United States, definitely enough that that cultural path need also be explored. Damn. Thanks for pointing this out in such a way that I'd catch myself, Zeal.

Gotcha on 11. I'm still confused on 19, though, as to what that has to do with a "powerful male group." I have personally never had to deal with those types of questions before, but I can see it happening to others.

28: Really? Was it a clear-cut case of her lying about it?

Thanks again for the explanation on 29, and 41 is crazy. Doctors do that? I mean, I'm sure some busy or incompetent ones do, but surely most doctors don't prescribe just whatever? Right?

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#1632: Jun 4th 2012 at 12:17:22 PM

Minorities that start asking for raises are more likely to be transferred/laid off than other races, I believe. Not sure about that one, to be honest.

I've seen it. I'm sure.

It was an honor
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#1633: Jun 4th 2012 at 12:43:39 PM

28: Really? Was it a clear-cut case of her lying about it?

According to state laws, it didn't matter. All cases of sexual harassment have to be treated seriously.

Thanks again for the explanation on 29, and 41 is crazy. Doctors do that? I mean, I'm sure some busy or incompetent ones do, but surely most doctors don't prescribe just whatever? Right?

My grandmother died because a doctor prescribed the wrong medicine to her, when one look at her medical history should have told him she was allergic to it.

At one point, my mother had to go to surgery for a relatively minor thing. After the surgery, however, she suddenly needed to pee constantly. Her catheter was constantly full of urine, and when I asked the doctor about it, he said it was a natural consequence of...well, I don't remember. Something about the anesthesia, if I recall. He said it was nothing to worry about and that they would send my mother home the next day. Then, my cousin got there, and when they laid the same line on her, she let them talk and just listened. Then, she laid out all of the ways what they just said was flat out wrong. The doctor had a horrific look on his face, and he quickly started to backpedal, obviously trying to save face in front of this pharmacist who knew more about his job than he did. So, they kept my mother two extra days, and it turned out she was absolutely right.

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure that "racism" or whatever was the cause of it—but there's definitely a case to be said that doctors can tell whatever bullshit they want to patients whom they're sure don't know any better.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#1634: Jun 4th 2012 at 12:44:45 PM

Gotcha on 11. I'm still confused on 19, though, as to what that has to do with a "powerful male group." I have personally never had to deal with those types of questions before, but I can see it happening to others.

I think a certain XKCD comic may shed light on how this works.

edited 4th Jun '12 12:45:08 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#1635: Jun 4th 2012 at 12:52:38 PM

@Zeal: Well I was really talking more about the morality of the issue instead of the legality of it. If a woman says that a guy slapped her on the ass and 20 people were in the room and every one of them refute it, I see nothing wrong, morally speaking, with laughing at her pitiable attempt to get someone fired. Likewise if a guy asks her out, once, she says she's not interested, and he leaves her alone about it, and she says it's sexual harassment, I'd probably laugh too. I understand it's illegal, but I don't think it's sexist to not take things seriously that are obviously not serious.

On the other hand, if it were a serious issue, then that undermines my whole, "being accused of racism = being accused of sexual harassment," which was confusing me about the "argument with a poc" statement.

As for the doctor stuff...holy shit. That is fucked up beyond imagining. I want to say that I hope it's an isolated incident, but I'm guessing poc have to deal with this more often? Fuck.

EDIT: [up]So, "powerful male group" means any male in authority? If so, I guess it makes some sense. Poor wording, then. It had me imagining a black person standing in front of a board of directors or something.

edited 4th Jun '12 12:55:10 PM by Vericrat

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#1636: Jun 4th 2012 at 12:57:29 PM

[up]I think that a 'powerful male group' is just the sort of place where it'd be particularly pronounced, because that is, by default, a heavy concentration of privilege.

edited 4th Jun '12 12:58:22 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#1637: Jun 4th 2012 at 12:59:45 PM

@Vericrat:

Doctors do that? I mean, I'm sure some busy or incompetent ones do, but surely most doctors don't prescribe just whatever? Right?

That's how I wound up on expensive name-brand drugs for "depression and ADHD" instead of getting my autoimmue disorder diagnosed properly, and dismissed me as "it's all in your head" when I developed severe side effects.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#1638: Jun 4th 2012 at 1:00:44 PM

[up][up][up] In all honesty, I didn't at the time either (I was one of those that laughed, after all). However, we brushed it off because the guy in question was one of the nicest guys we knew. Hard-working, polite, extremely shy, etc. Not to say any of those things realistically made him exempt, but at the time, it seemed far-fetched.

But the woman in question was pretty serious about it. I don't know where it went from there, but we started being more careful around her. I don't know if the guys held a grudge against her after that or anything, but...that's illegal, too.

The point is, though, I can easily see how this sort of attitude could translate to cases of racism when you're the only one of your race.

edited 4th Jun '12 1:05:07 PM by KingZeal

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#1639: Jun 4th 2012 at 1:07:19 PM

DG: Mind humoring a question? Where are you from exactly? What county?

It sounds like your community is basically the same type of hellhole that mine has always been.

edited 4th Jun '12 1:07:30 PM by KingZeal

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#1640: Jun 4th 2012 at 1:14:17 PM

@Zeal: Oklahoma City, NW side. It was bad enough that I sold everything to get a one-way Greyhound out of there, so I'm in Washington now, and it's a lot better up here.

Stuff like this happened all the time down there, and that's within walking distance of my family's house.

edited 4th Jun '12 1:17:55 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#1641: Jun 4th 2012 at 1:24:29 PM

Does your neighborhood have a particular name, and is it well-known for people with your hardships and background the same way Englewood (where I live) is known here in Chicago?

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#1642: Jun 4th 2012 at 1:29:57 PM

Not really. The only named communities were where the rich people lived, like Nichols Hills.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#1643: Jun 4th 2012 at 1:32:44 PM

I see.

The looks on peoples faces when I tell them I live in Englewood, and the things they say ("What the hell are you doing THERE?!", for example) are almost worth it. I don't know if I should be happy or sad that people don't know I live in the poorest neighborhood in the wealthiest city in the Midwest.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#1644: Jun 4th 2012 at 1:36:38 PM

As for the doctor stuff...holy shit. That is fucked up beyond imagining. I want to say that I hope it's an isolated incident, but I'm guessing poc have to deal with this more often? Fuck.

"Isolated incident"???? [lol][lol][lol][lol][lol][lol]

Vericrat, do me a favor, Google 'Lenox Hill Hospital' and/or 'Weill Cornell Medical School' and check out the first four results. Then Google 'Harlem Hospital Center' or 'Woodhull Hospital'.

You will then learn why some POC's tell their children to only go to "white people's hospitals".

The looks on peoples faces when I tell them I live in Englewood, and the things they say ("What the hell are you doing THERE?!", for example) are almost worth it. I don't know if I should be happy or sad that people don't know I live in the poorest neighborhood in the wealthiest city in the Midwest.

There was time back in The '80s when my aunt got her associates degree and it was a huge deal. See during that time, she was the one colored woman with something higher than a high school diploma in that stretch of Harlem from 118th to 135th Street.

Contrast with NYC having the highest distribution of advanced degrees of any metropolitan area in the US. Though Zeal, I'm told your folks in Chi-town are closing the gap.

edited 4th Jun '12 1:44:09 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#1645: Jun 4th 2012 at 1:42:50 PM

@Zeal: For the record the wealth distribution in OKC looks like this. According to the map, my area had an average income of $30k/year. I know from living out there, that most households had two or more people working, and the minimum wage is what the federal minimum wage is.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#1646: Jun 4th 2012 at 1:59:31 PM

@Starship: Yeah, I see what you mean. I do have a question though:

Is this a legitimate racial issue? I really don't know. Are the doctors and staff there overworked because the neighborhoods surrounding them are poorer, and therefore don't have insurance, leading to the hospitals making less money to put back into hiring more staff/better staff? Or do the doctors there legitimately care less because their patients are poc?

Either way, it's a problem (please don't get me wrong on this point), but I'm wondering whether it's strictly a financial issue or it's root is racism.

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#1647: Jun 4th 2012 at 2:47:06 PM

Well Vericrat, as Zeal (and others) has expertly pointed out, the racism we deal with nowadays is not bigotry based but rather institutional.

You are dead on the money, the doctors at HHC and the Hull are no more racist than the ones at Cornell or Lenox Hill. But...

Lenox Hill is located on the Upper East Side, where 98% of the 1%-ers in NY live. The Hull and HHC serve dirt poor neighborhoods where health insurance is..infrequent...at best. Also realize that in those affluent neighborhoods, similar to Zeal's spot-on anecdote about financial advisors, those people can easily afford things like twice-yearly checkups, preventative therapies, and even private doctors who still make housecalls.

The end result is a clientele that most likely won't need dire emergency care. Contrast to some poor kid from the ghetto who hasn't gotten a proper dental cleaning in 10 years.

It was an honor
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#1648: Jun 4th 2012 at 4:37:27 PM

Hm, I always feel strange whenever I get into the education differences because my family has been very well-educated for like four generations and this still has not particularly translated into money.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#1650: Jun 4th 2012 at 4:42:05 PM

At least three generations of women with college degrees.

I don't know.

I've been told I'm a minority but then I also don't count.

edited 4th Jun '12 4:44:09 PM by ohsointocats


Total posts: 1,657
Top