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DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#101: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:43:06 PM

Point me to anti-minority racism currently on the books, then.

Hail Martin Septim!
kyfhv Since: Aug, 2011
#102: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:44:13 PM

For those wondering about evidence of white privilege, well:

Britain's top police officer, Scotland Yard Commissioner Bernard Hogan-Howe, said shortly before the sentences were passed that "the other people involved in the murder of Stephen Lawrence should not rest easily in their beds". Dobson (L) and Norris were sentenced in a murder case that exposed "institutional racism" [Reuters]

The Stephen Lawrence case changed race relations in Britain, after a 1999 report by senior judge William Macpherson said the murder had exposed "institutional racism" in the police force and also accused officers of incompetence and a failure of leadership.

Al Jazeera's Jonah Hull said that Eighteen years after Lawrence's death, "problems still remain" in the UK government and policing structure.

"Studies suggest that Blacks are eight times more likely to be stopped and searched 'at random' on the streets than whites," our correspondent said from London.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDhMNcVmGQE

So yes, white privilege does exist and is everywhere. And that's just with regards to law enforcement, and doesn't touch on education inequality, hate crimes, and income inequality.

So how do you end it? Well, as a lowly individual, there isn't much you can do, unfourtounatly. But not being racist is a great start.

edited 19th Jan '12 9:46:07 PM by kyfhv

BlackElephant Obsidian Proboscidean from In the Room Since: Oct, 2011
Obsidian Proboscidean
#103: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:47:57 PM

Also, the fact that the public schools that seem to be suffering the most are inner cities schools that are predominantly black, and it's kind of hard to get people to help.

Also, missing white woman syndrome.

I'm an elephant. Rurr.
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#104: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:49:03 PM

@Starship:

But again, I'm not suggesting that there aren't multiple racism issues. Try being "an Oreo", that's a whole OTHER set of black problems.

I'm not sure how you're using "Oreo" since I've heard it used to mean a couple of different things. If you're talking about having biracial parents, then I can sympathize, because I did have more than a few problems growing up with a Hispanic stepfather when I'm blonde and blue-eyed.

If you're talking about it being used as a generic slur, I can also sympathize, because of the aforementioned blonde hair and blue eyes. When people want to insult me, they go for the "dumb blonde" jokes or make assertions that I'm a neo-nazi. Granted, it's not the same because I can dye my hair, but it still pisses me off.

I'm saying to you, and to you Scrib, that none of us can say to the other, "Well, I don't see your problem, I see mine. Hence mine exists, yours is simply a product of your imagination."

And THAT my friends is how we'll beat this thing. I know I get flack for being all Pollyanna, but I don't give a shit. When we ALL join forces, problems tremble because they know their days are numbered.

I'm inclined to agree. Now, to get other people to realize this too.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#105: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:49:25 PM

I know Scrib you've asked repeatedly what can you actually do to combat this. Black Elephant's (long time no see bro(sis?) experience is a good example.

I've found that the vast majority of whites, like any other ethnic group, are decent hard-working folks who bear nobody any ill will. They simply might be ignorant, like any other ethnic group.

It never happened to me as much, but I have been eyeballed in stores.

One thing I find helps, a joke. Humor is a time-tested way to break the ice on sensitive issues. You can call the shit out, while at the same time leaving room for the person not to feel attacked.

One time, at a newly opened UNIQLO, a noticed a store clerk eyeing me. I simply said to her "Honey, don't worry about me stealing these, I can't fit these skinny jeans anyhow." Upon the shocked look on her face, I laughed out loud. So did she.

Again, many people don't want to be racist. Many don't know. Even if she was eyeing me because she thought I'd try to rip them off, that joke put it on the table that either a) if that's what you're doing, I'm on to you. If not then b) she got a good laugh as did I.

It was an honor
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#106: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:51:40 PM

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
Funny, I could do this in Japan.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
I'm curious what context this one and #11 are supposed to be in. Because IMX with the military, they really, really don't give a damn about your race, they give a damn about how well you know what you're supposed to be doing.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions,
I'm wondering exactly what kind of music is "my race" supposed to be, ditto with the foods.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
... I am now highly doubting that this author actually has children or understands what goes on in their life if they do have children.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.
That's just straight bad parenting right there.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
... Chinese are now "persons of color"??

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.
The only time I've ever been pulled over, I was singled out because I had a car with an out-of-state license plate.

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.
This is one point definitely true throughout the military IMX.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.
I'm so pale I can't.

Who the hell takes checks from anyone these days? - Doma
Public utilities do. Of course, those are all paid by mail, and last time I checked a brown envelope was not disadvantaged compared to a white envelope.

a black guy who can't spell is treated more racially than a white guy is. - Doma
As opposed to thinking the write the same way they text?

I'm pretty sure half of you see me as a bunker-dwelling, vagrant-stomping loony without race ever entering into the conversation. - Doma
I should really sig this. Damn you, 140 character limit! I want to have more than one quote at a time!

I think everyone can answer yes to this one. - Doma
This one has nothing to do with race, and a great deal to do with the workplace environment in general. My first command, I most definitely did not have someone I felt I could ask questions about how to improve my career and professional improvement.

Also, I cannot find bandages pale enough to match my skin tone. - OSIC
I am not alone!

I've lived here for almost 7 years and I don't know any of my neighbors, because they do not talk to me. - DS
I don't talk to any of my neighbors, but that's because I'm an antisocial geek. Is that what every white guy should be aiming for?

cool Jedi tricks like telepathy and mind control are not included in the Caucasian purview. - DS
Curses, foiled again!

True, I've failed those tests of whether you're subconsciously racist, but I will do my part to promote a society in which children will not grow up to be racist, and I believe that if enough other people join me, racism will eventually cease to exist. - feotakahari
I suppose the important question with this is, how much conscious effort do you have to use to overcome subconscious impulses?

So we're doomed to always be seen as the privileged and racist upperclass? - DG
Or until our society has changed significantly enough, or we no longer are the "privileged upperclass."

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#107: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:52:27 PM

@ky: I don't need proof that WP exists as a concept. What I'm asking for...aw fuck it, I've said it often enough.

@Starship, post 100: See, that's what I like to hear. prejudice is prejudice, and its evil shit all the way round.

And one of the reasons I'm asking the questions that I'm asking is; I think the whole issue of racism would be an easier sell to poor whites if it wasn't packaged as "White Privilege". It may be incorrect thinking, but when an impoverished individual who's one step from the street starts hearing about how he or she is supposedly "having it easy" *

...well, DG pretty much explained that one. Class anger is rife in America right now; it doesn't take much to set it off, even in the wrong direction.

@Thread: Also, individuals like myself would really like some advice on how we can combat this in our daily lives; I'd rather feel like part of the solution, rather than simply be told that I'm part of the problem by default and there's nothing I can do about it on a day-to-day basis. Thus, the dialogue I'm engaging in.

And I don't think I'm being unreasonable OR dismissive by asking for that.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#108: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:53:20 PM

^ There's an essay somewhere on "The Pervocracy" about why the author of same refuses to use the word "privilege." I'll see if I can track it down.

Edit: On a related site, but by the same author.

edited 19th Jan '12 9:54:33 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
kyfhv Since: Aug, 2011
#109: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:55:11 PM

I don't need proof that WP exists as a concept. What I'm asking for...aw fuck it, I've said it often enough.

because if its as pervasive as everyone's saying, I ought to be able to see it from where I'm standing. When I make this assertion, people tell me "oh, it's so big you can't see it, but its there always, trust us". What rational human wouldn't experience a niggling sensation of doubt when faced with a response like that?

edited 19th Jan '12 9:55:25 PM by kyfhv

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#110: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:57:36 PM

Hey Ninja! How's Nevada?

Another suggestion as to what can the individual do, I point you to Brooklyn, NY, USA 1947. Jackie Robinson's first season as the first black baseball player in the modern era had him facing serious, SERIOUS, like put you in an institution abuse. Philadelphia was a particularly racially abusive city.

One day, teammate Herman "Pee Wee" Reese simply walked out during batting practice and put his arm around Robinson. Some Philly fans were shocked silent, some mumbled, some got even more pissed.

But that wordless gesture helped define Crowning Moment Of Awesome / Crowning Moment Of Heartwarming for the next half century.

It was an honor
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#111: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:58:11 PM

I don't understand why bandages try to be white-people-colored anyway. It'd be more fun if normal bandages came in purple or green or something.

drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#112: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:59:15 PM

@feo: Excellent. I like this

At this point in the conversation, the feminists are obliged to explain that “privileged” doesn’t mean your life is guaranteed awesome, just that there are certain things that a white male doesn’t have to worry about that other groups can, and it doesn’t mean that you’re deliberately causing oppression, but you’re sort of a participant in oppression, or you’re sort of benefiting from oppression, and you just didn’t understand exactly what “privilege” means.

Any word that requires this much explaining to not be insulting and untrue is not an awesome word. It shouldn’t take three pages and a bibliography to explain why you didn’t just say “shut up, rich boy” to someone who’s actually quite poor.

And this

In our society both men and women deal with unfair shit, and characterizing this all as unidirectional “privilege” oversimplifies the problem, antagonizes potential allies, and marginalizes nominally “privileged” people who still experience oppression.

@ky: You're conflating what I'm freely admitting exists as a concept with what I'm scratching my head on how to identify in my individual life. I've repeatedly said I'm of two minds on the subject, please stop doing that.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#113: Jan 19th 2012 at 10:01:52 PM

@Cats: Some people don't like announcing to the world that "Hey, I'm a klutz and hurt myself!" so they want bandages that match their skin.

However, it's the taken the same way as how Crayola used to have a "flesh" colored crayon that was decidedly Caucasian. I think that little things like that are types of unaware racism. The stuff you don't really think about.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#114: Jan 19th 2012 at 10:04:33 PM

Normally I use bandaids for paper cuts, and considering I work as a paper-shuffler, so papercuts don't seem like they're actually caused by klutziness...

So only white people want to hide the fact that they're a klutz and hurt themselves?

You know how Crayola released a pack of crayons with all different skin tones? They should do that with bandaids. Then nobody could complain, and the bandaid company gets more money from people who don't want to use bandaids that don't match their skin tone.

Everyone wins!

edited 19th Jan '12 10:05:53 PM by ohsointocats

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#115: Jan 19th 2012 at 10:05:46 PM

Okay, so it seems what we've got so far here is, White's have privilege. Several whites, like our cool duo Scrib and his Girlfriend, are saying they are white without privilege.

So let's formally acknowledge that not all whites are part of this privileged set-up, nor are they party to it in deed or lack therof. Let's also acknowledge that this doesn't change the basic prevalence of the statement.

Also, Girlfriend - "Oreo" - n: a disparaging term for a person of Black descent who does not subscribe to Black characteristics of suspicious authenticity. syn: "White bread", "Poser", "House nigger".

It was an honor
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#116: Jan 19th 2012 at 10:08:35 PM

I wish people would stop it with the food-based disparaging terms. They're horribly inaccurate. And besides, oreos are delicious.

drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#117: Jan 19th 2012 at 10:08:53 PM

So let's formally acknowledge that not all whites are part of this privileged set-up, nor are they party to it in deed or lack therof. Let's also acknowledge that this doesn't change the basic prevalence of the statement.

And then Starship won 1 well-deserved Internet. [awesome]

@"Oreo": Ouch. I knew the term was disparaging but I didn't know it was quite that bad. -makes mental note not to use it ever-

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#118: Jan 19th 2012 at 10:11:20 PM

[up] [up] Oh So, I wish they'd stop penalizing people for having the gall to be (GASP!) who they want to be independent of others of their ethnic, religious, national, gender, or class group.

[up] Hon, I could tell you stories. For. Days.

I like sushi. - Of course you do, you're trying to score Asian women. (Me) :O What?!

I like to ski. - Of course you do, you're trying to pick up White women.

I like Star Trek. - Of course you do, it's a white people's show.

I like hip-hop. - No you don't you're just trying to score "Black" points.

edited 19th Jan '12 10:13:35 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#119: Jan 19th 2012 at 10:11:45 PM

Gonna be hopping around the thread a bit here:

Drunk Scribblerian: "It's there, it's evil and you are benefiting from it...but you can't see it or feel it, so you'll just have to take our word that it exists, here's some handy numbers that back us up"

Wait, that's a contradiction. You don't have to take our word for it, because we have the numbers that back us up.

Doma Doma: Racism isn't the evil in and of itself. It's a motive for injustice. If I deny you a job because you drink Pepsi instead of Coke, that is exactly as unfair as if I denied you that job because you have brown skin and a round forehead. Hence, I'm against statutory injustice meant to compensate for "systemic" injustice.

So long as you always keep in mind that arbitrary discrimination is bad, whether it's done to a "privileged" person or a "marginalized" one.

Ah, I see you're still operating under the "colorblindness" fallacy. Fact is it's NOT as unjust to deny someone a job because they drink Pepsi as it is to deny someone a job because they're black, because the Pepsi-drinker has not suffered the past and current injustices that the black person has. Including especially the fact that everyone else is ALSO discriminating against the black guy.

In fact, despite what you say, you seem to think that racism is the evil in and of itself. It's not. The problem is that people are worse off because of the color of their skin. Treating people unequally isn't important, it's the EFFECTS on those people that are important. Which is why it's actually quite moral to give preferential treatment to non-white people: doing that actually makes people MORE equal because white people start out at a better position.

If you're refereeing a race and you notice the shape of the track gives some racers an advantage, it's not unfair to give the other racers a head start. That's actually making the race MORE fair. The UNFAIR thing to do would be to ignore the advantage and insist on not giving anyone special treatment. They're ALREADY GETTING special treatment, that's the problem.

An example of this, that I personally experienced: I am white. My stepfather is Hispanic. My half-brother is half-Hispanic. Despite us both being raised in the same house, in the same economic status, it is assumed that I am "privileged" and that he needs help. Ergo, he can apply for minority status in things like scholarships that I cannot.

For a very long time, I was very bitter about this, considering that I failed out of college because I was working and taking classes at the same time, since my scholarships did not go far enough. I felt that the happenstance of my birth was a direct disadvantage to me, and that my life would have been better if I had gotten the few extra scholarships that he's eligible for.

All evidence that I have seen (for example) indicates that you (or at least, people like you on average) still should've gotten more money, because the scholarships that you can apply for are (implicitly) biased enough towards white people that it balances out the money you lose from not being able to apply for every scholarship.

drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#120: Jan 19th 2012 at 10:14:53 PM

Hon, I could tell you stories. For. Days.

Someday, we should get together, crack a few beers and swap stories about what its like to be judged on the basis of our outward appearance...and then, after much drinking, write a movie script about it. We could call it, "The Cracker & The Oreo".

It would be heartwarming.

EDIT in response to Starship's EDIT: Oh, I hear you. Apparently I must cook meth in my garage, because I'm a skinny white dude with a big-ass mustache and I like metal. The fact that I don't even have a garage is, apparently, beside the point.[lol]

edited 19th Jan '12 10:17:52 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#121: Jan 19th 2012 at 10:16:31 PM

@Star Ship: What.

That's just...

Really dumb.

(though I can't see how anyone would like skiing or sushi).

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#122: Jan 19th 2012 at 10:18:04 PM

@Cats:

So only white people want to hide the fact that they're a klutz and hurt themselves?

Therein lies the racism of it.

@Starship: Ah, okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

So let's formally acknowledge that not all whites are part of this privileged set-up, nor are they party to it in deed or lack therof. Let's also acknowledge that this doesn't change the basic prevalence of the statement.

I agree that white privilege is indeed prevalent and a problem in society today, I never meant to dispute it's existence, and I'm sorry if I came off that way to anyone.

Edit: I'm going afk for a bit now, but I'd like to continue this conversation later. It's been enlightening and it's nice to see someone with a reasonable counter-argument to my stance. Usually the most I get is a flat "You're wrong, and that's a terrible racist argument!"

edited 19th Jan '12 10:25:25 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#123: Jan 19th 2012 at 10:23:54 PM

[up]What she said, regarding White Privilege as a concept vs. its presence in an individual's daily life. And in large measure the edit too.

edited 19th Jan '12 10:27:34 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#124: Jan 19th 2012 at 10:30:04 PM

Someday, we should get together, crack a few beers and swap stories about what its like to be judged on the basis of our outward appearance...and then, after much drinking, write a movie script about it. We could call it, "The Cracker & The Oreo".

It would be heartwarming.

Scrib and Starship enter a bar. The bartender comes to take their order.

Bartender: Ah. So which of you is Crockett and which is Tubbs? (Scrib and Starship shoot her a look that says they've heard it a hundred times and it stopped being funny after the 3rd) Okay then. I'll be back with a drink menu.

The two of them notice two beautiful women. One's white one's black. They both walk over. As luck would have it the white woman talks to Starship, while the black one talks to Scriblerian. All is going well, then suddenly simultaneously both women get upset.

Beautiful white woman: (throws drink in Starship's face) You were looking at my tits weren't you?!!

Starship Maxima: What?! No!

BWW: Yes you were. All you black people are alike, thinking about sex.

Starhip: (draws a deep breath and wipes the drink off his face and shirt) I was looking at the aquamarine pendant you were wearing. I thought it was nice since my mother is also a March birthday.

BWW is stunned silent. Meanwhile

Beautiful black woman: (notices Scriblerian staring at her) What's the matter? (Scriblerian looks confused) Oh, I get it. Can't handle my afro huh? Wish I'd tame that bush?? Why don't you get yourself one of thse straight-haired bitches! Fucking cracker!

Is about to throw drink in Scriblerian's face but he grabs her hand.

Scriblerian: I was totally looking at your afro.

BBW struggles. Scriblerian pulls her close to whisper in her ear.

Scriblerian: You look like Pam Grier with that afro. You might be the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. (the beautiful black woman is stunned silent)

An hour later Starship is heading uptown with the white lady while Scriblerian and his Pam Grier-like model go to check out the Castle Geekhaven. Scriblerian laughs to himself when he notices Starship has texted him a high-five.

edited 19th Jan '12 10:32:42 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#125: Jan 19th 2012 at 10:34:38 PM

@Starship: [lol][lol][lol][lol][lol][lol][lol][lol][lol][lol][awesome]

Another Internet for the man! Someone serve him an Internet, goddamn it!

A friend of mine once said that "life is humor, enjoyment revolves around getting the joke". I can't say that he's wrong, really.

edited 19th Jan '12 10:35:47 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

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