TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

White Privilege

Go To

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#76: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:45:11 PM

@Starship:While I do recognize that minorities in the US have been the target of discrimination for far too long, I don't think that attempting to move on is a slap in the face.

For example, that list is 23 years old. For 23 years, it has been published in textbooks, quoted, and taught as truth with little to no alteration. How much longer does this need to be an Us vs Them mentality?

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
kyfhv Since: Aug, 2011
#77: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:46:37 PM

@scrib By reading the hundreds of studies and research devoted to the topic. That, and taking college courses on the topic.

edited 19th Jan '12 8:47:17 PM by kyfhv

drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#78: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:49:02 PM

@ky: as I said earlier, I've been to college...and all that taught me was to articulate better what I already know; that racism exists (duh) and is a serious societal problem (no shit). Maybe they cover how to identify it reliably in grad school or something, I don't know as I didn't make it that far.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#79: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:49:40 PM

Racism isn't the evil in and of itself. It's a motive for injustice. If I deny you a job because you drink Pepsi instead of Coke, that is exactly as unfair as if I denied you that job because you have brown skin and a round forehead. Hence, I'm against statutory injustice meant to compensate for "systemic" injustice.

Hail Martin Septim!
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#80: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:52:22 PM

For example, that list is 23 years old. For 23 years, it has been published in textbooks, quoted, and taught as truth with little to no alteration. How much longer does this need to be an Us vs Them mentality?

Girlfriend, it pains me to say this but while that list may have been drafted 23 years ago it is NOT 23 years old.

I know from first hand Real Life that 96% of that list is true today. And that's WITH all the people, many of them white, working hard to change it.

So you saying you want to move on is like saying to a gun shot victim who just had the bullet removed "Okay, you're good. Wash yourself and go home", yet the internal bleeding hasn't been staunched, there's been no check of infection, no check to see if vital organs have been damaged, or even if the wound has been properly stitched.

It was an honor
kyfhv Since: Aug, 2011
#81: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:53:16 PM

Racism isn't the evil in and of itself.
I disagree. Look at racism in Russia, and the repeated pogroms. If racism wasn't actively combated, people died. Same in the united states with regards to lynching.

edited 19th Jan '12 8:57:11 PM by kyfhv

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#82: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:56:06 PM

@Drunken - I don't know if you saw my answer. But to reiterate. It is difficult to identify by straight up Socratic methods.

However, just like with guaging if a girl likes you, you develop a kind of instinct for these things.

Of course, a lot of it is trial-and-error. I swung from "what are people talking about?? White folks are swell!" to "Fucking Whitey" and now, thankfully, I've reached a "Let me check these cats out and see if they're cool or if they need to get wrecked."

[up] Excellent point ky.

edited 19th Jan '12 8:57:15 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#83: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:58:26 PM

[up][up] Killing innocent people should be combated, yes. Neutering the motives helps. Being hyper-aware of race does not neuter racism.

Hail Martin Septim!
kyfhv Since: Aug, 2011
#84: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:02:29 PM

Lynching declined and didn't become a national crisis because there was a constant battle to end it by civil rights advocates. People in turn heard about lynchings on the media, which in turn helped reduce lynchings because of backlash.

I don't see the problem with educating people on the horrors of racism. If it saves innocent lives and reduces discrimination overall, why not?

[down]This isn't 1860.

edited 19th Jan '12 9:07:10 PM by kyfhv

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#85: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:02:44 PM

@Starship: Unfortunately, while it is indeed unfair to you, the refusal to look at this as a universal issue bothers me quite a bit. A large portion of the list does not apply to me, and in many of the bullet points, I'm in the position of the minority the list was talking about, and have been actively discriminated against because I am not a minority.

This is why I believe that the issue extends beyond black vs white, and the inequality of privilege is best viewed through a "colorless" filter.

@Ky: Educate them, yes. But please don't assume that I'm going to live a certain lifestyle because of the color of my skin.

edited 19th Jan '12 9:04:29 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#86: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:05:23 PM

[up] I see where you're going Girlfriend, but that's a false dichotomy.

Simply because you as, I assume, a white woman who has not benefitted from this country's white bias doesn't mean the prevalence of the problem of white bias doesn't exist.

I personally had to learn, as a black American who is commonly referred to as "White bread" and "an Oreo", there are many things that happen to black Americans of a different background that haven't happened to me.

That doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

Believe me hon, I'd give ANYTHING to live in a world where I and my children could simply live our lives without race being an issue. But in order for that to happen, we have to solve the problem of race as it exists now. And to do that we have to admit that there is one.

edited 19th Jan '12 9:09:28 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Flyboy Decemberist from the United States Since: Dec, 2011
Decemberist
#87: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:05:58 PM

Part of the problem is that people like Doma consider attempting to level the basic starting point "unjust" because oh teh noes, taxes and (~gasp~) government interference...

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#88: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:07:35 PM

@Starship: I have seen racism before...but I've got people telling me that it's all over the place and I'm not even seeing it. Now, knowing what I know about people and their tendency to judge others prematurely and harshly, it stands to reason that they are correct...but as I've said a couple times now it seems rather uncharitable just to walk around assuming that everyone's acting like a racist douche and every good thing that comes my way is the result of a massive institutionalized machine created to benefit me.

For one thing, you'd think I'd have ended up a little less poor if that were the case. [lol]

In all seriousness, I find the vagueness of all these assertions a trifle unsettling.

"It's there, it's evil and you are benefiting from it...but you can't see it or feel it, so you'll just have to take our word that it exists, here's some handy numbers that back us up"

...Am I alone in not being completely convinced here?

edited 19th Jan '12 9:08:52 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#89: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:07:39 PM

[up][up][up] So long as you always keep in mind that arbitrary discrimination is bad, whether it's done to a "privileged" person or a "marginalized" one.

Flyboy, when you have something to contribute to a conversation besides heavily internet-sarcastic, straw-manned blanket statements, let me know.

edited 19th Jan '12 9:09:14 PM by DomaDoma

Hail Martin Septim!
kyfhv Since: Aug, 2011
#90: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:11:36 PM

nvm

edited 19th Jan '12 9:13:40 PM by kyfhv

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#91: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:12:58 PM

Scrib, you are not a native Rwandan, I assume. Does that mean that you don't believe that Rwandan genocide and all it's horrific fallout didn't happen?

I trust you are cancer-free, do you not believe it kills millions across the country?

Why must you need convincing of an evil and it's prevalence simply because you've been fortunate enough to be directly involved in it?

So how do you combat racism? That's what we should be, or could be discussing.

Completely agreed, but the problem is it seems there's a divide between those who think the problem is overblown and those who intimately know that the problem is vastly underestimated.

Kinda like global warming and the economic meltdown.

edited 19th Jan '12 9:15:31 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#92: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:14:02 PM

@ky: That's what I've been saying. Though I'm honestly not convinced of the universality of the White Privilege theory (though I'll bite that it exists and is probably more commonplace than I'm assuming, I do live in a fairly liberal part of the country for one thing), I'm willing to assume truth for the sake of argument.

my dissatisfaction at the moment is due to the paucity of answers I'm getting from the proponents of this theory regarding what I can do as an individual in the course of my daily interaction with other individuals to lessen the impact of this institutional "racist machine", or at the least identify it when it rears its ugly head so I can at least avoid its influence.

@Starship

Why must you need convincing of an evil and it's prevalence simply because you've been fortunate enough to be directly involved in it?

because if its as pervasive as everyone's saying, I ought to be able to see it from where I'm standing. When I make this assertion, people tell me "oh, it's so big you can't see it, but its there always, trust us". What rational human wouldn't experience a niggling sensation of doubt when faced with a response like that?

edited 19th Jan '12 9:15:40 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
kyfhv Since: Aug, 2011
#93: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:16:49 PM

@scrib Well, as a lowly individual, there isn't that much you can do. But why limit discussion to your self? Why not discuss what a politician, or someone with great influence can do?

[down]It's just something one can do when they're bored. I follow US politics. I can't make any change, but it's just a hobby of sorts.

edited 19th Jan '12 9:22:55 PM by kyfhv

drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#94: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:18:07 PM

@ky: because I likely won't ever even speak to a person of great importance, but I'll always be an individual. As a practical matter, I'd rather do what I can then speak about what I can't.

I grew tired of pissing in the wind after college.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#95: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:21:49 PM

@Scrib, I know you to be an intelligent troper, for a while now. So I don't say this as "you're blind". But rather, I think you have a fundamental lack of understanding for how this thing called institutional racism truly works.

You sound like the folks who say, "Well, if global warming is so bad, why is still getting snowstorms in January?"

Racism bears an uncanny resemblance to many viruses. You can carry it and not know because you don't see symptoms. Or rather....you're not seeing "certain" symptoms.

First of all, you're not black, so I hate to say it, of course you'll be blissfully more unaware of it's prevalence than I will be. Also, I know the kinds of symptoms to look for, things you wouldn't think of. Because you're a bad guy? No way. Simply because you haven't lived it.

When a woman of another race makes a comment about your sexual prowess or the inches between your legs on initial meeting. (I won't bullshit you and say I don't sometimes file that under "Positive Discrimination".)

When a coworker, upon meeting you face to face says "Oh, gee, I thought you were white" based on how you speak on the phone.

When you get a looks thrown in your direction because you're with a woman of a different race.

When a man of another race feels the need to "break the ice" by discussing hip-hop, or a BET sitcom, or a basketball game.

Now, any ONE of these things, I'd chalk up to....whatever. I wouldn't care. When it happens twice, three times, 10 times, on a regular basis, then yes Scrib I expect you to understand I'm not hallucinating the shit.

edited 19th Jan '12 9:27:31 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#96: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:21:59 PM

No one's brought up the term "kyriarchy" yet, so I might as well do so. It's a bit misleading to separate white privilege from any other form of privilege, since plenty of white people are disadvantaged in different ways.

(I'd say something about Drunk having the right to criticize the system because X, Y, and Z, but let's face it: everyone has the right to criticize the system. I'm not convinced there's anyone alive who hasn't suffered some form of prejudice in some context.)

edited 19th Jan '12 9:28:13 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#97: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:31:03 PM

@Starship: While I understand that, I still believe that it's possible to educate people about the current problem of racism without alienating white people who happen to be below the poverty line.

The other problematic detail that has yet to be raised, is that white people below the poverty line tend to be more racist, and many of them feel justified in their hate. I've noticed that in these discussions, (both online and IRL) many of the whites who lean towards racism tend to feel slighted by the idea of white privilege, since it implies that they are somehow inferior since they did not benefit from their "whiteness". They also tend to view various minority-forward programs as a slap in the face, because there are very few white-forward programs to help them. This breeds contempt, and contempt breeds malice.

An example of this, that I personally experienced: I am white. My stepfather is Hispanic. My half-brother is half-Hispanic. Despite us both being raised in the same house, in the same economic status, it is assumed that I am "privileged" and that he needs help. Ergo, he can apply for minority status in things like scholarships that I cannot.

For a very long time, I was very bitter about this, considering that I failed out of college because I was working and taking classes at the same time, since my scholarships did not go far enough. I felt that the happenstance of my birth was a direct disadvantage to me, and that my life would have been better if I had gotten the few extra scholarships that he's eligible for.

I've since moved on from that, but I get a feeling that I'm one of the few.

This is why I think that the concept of privilege should be viewed as a universal problem. At the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, people cling tightly to race because of the Us vs Them mentality. Poverty stricken black people tend to hold a dim view of whites because whites are viewed as an oppressor. Poverty stricken whites tend to hold a dim view of blacks because they're perceived as getting better treatment.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#98: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:31:05 PM

I know you to be an intelligent troper, for a while now. So I don't say this as "you're blind". But rather, I think you have a fundamental lack of understanding for how this thing called institutional racism truly works.

I acknowledge the possibility. I am, as you assert later on, not black, so the finer points are probably lost on me. I've only my observations to go on...but I don't think asking "okay, how do I spot this and what can I do about it in my daily life?" and being told "you can't, and there isn't anything" is an answer I should be at all satisfied with.

You sound like the folks who say, "Well, if global warming is so bad, why is still getting snowstorms in January?"

Funny you should mention that, because I did say that at one point in my life (when the weather patterns were getting more extreme in my once-temperate homeland)...that in turn prompted me to do research about the subject and learn that climate change is the issue, and that the term "global warming" is something of a misnomer, etc. Questions like that should be asked, as long as the person asking them is being honest rather than rhetorical or dismissive.

Racism bears an uncanny resemblance to many viruses. You can carry it and not know because you don't see symptoms. Or rather....you're not seeing "certain" symptoms.

Yes, and I'm asking "all right, let's assume you're right, I'm sick and just ignorant. What should I watch out for?" Why is this a bad thing?

First of all, you're not black, so I hate to say it, of course you'll be blissfully more unaware of it's prevalence than I will be. Also, I know the kinds of symptoms to look for, things you wouldn't think of. Because you're a bad guy? No way. Simply because you haven't lived it.

I could simply turn that assertion around ("Well, you're not white, so you don't understand MY position, ha ha herp derp") but that's a cheap shot and not really helpful here. I only point it out because TBH its not helpful for you to point it out either. As I said earlier, I can only act on what I perceive from an outside perspective and take in from literature.

EDIT

When a woman of another race makes a comment about your sexual prowess or the inches between your legs on initial meeting. (I won't bullshit you and say I don't sometimes file that under "Positive Discrimination".)

When a coworker, upon meeting you face to face says "Oh, gee, I thought you were white" based on how you speak on the phone.

When you get a looks thrown in your direction because you're with a woman of a different race.

When a man of another race feels the need to "break the ice" by discussing hip-hop, or a BET sitcom, or a basketball game.

Now, any ONE of these things, I'd chalk up to....whatever. I wouldn't care. When it happens twice, three times, 10 times, on a regular basis, then yes Scrib I expect you to understand I'm not hallucinating the shit. (emphasis mine)

Never in a million years occurred to me to do so, Starship. I understand that this is an emotional, closely-held issue for those who are involved with it, because having people assume things about your personality and beliefs based on your appearance is ten different kinds of shitty...even moreso when those doing it don't perceive a problem with doing so. And no, I'm not saying it doesn't exist.

edited 19th Jan '12 9:35:59 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
BlackElephant Obsidian Proboscidean from In the Room Since: Oct, 2011
Obsidian Proboscidean
#99: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:32:37 PM

Let's look at it this way: white privilege may not benefit all white people, but it sure harms a lot of non-white people.

I'm just going to use my own experience as an example here. This doesn't happen much anymore, but it has happened a few times in the past. I have had store owners follow me around, watching me, then asking to check inside the shopping bag after I go through checkout—after I have clearly paid for my things and have spent money there. They did not do this to the white customers, only to me, and a few other customers (who were black, and I think Latino). I did not have suspicious body language, and I was dressed like a normal person, in a clean shirt and clean, well-kept jeans. I was not wearing a coat, and I was not carrying a large bag.

Another example: I have had (a couple) white teachers not be as attentive in answering my questions as they have to the other white students. This was not because I was a bad student, because I had a mostly A average. This was not due to social skill issues, as I made sure to say good morning/afternoon and not be disrespectful in class. The teachers also did this to other black students in the class. Now, imagine if I really had been seriously struggling in that class. Do you think, with this set up, I would have gotten the help I needed to pass?

Someone may not have gotten a job because they are white, but some people may have gotten shortchanged for being non-white.

(and my being light-skinned did not help one bit in any of these scenarios, but, then again, I never thought it would)

edited 19th Jan '12 9:33:33 PM by BlackElephant

I'm an elephant. Rurr.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#100: Jan 19th 2012 at 9:40:27 PM

@Girlfriend - I am truly sorry that that happened to you. From our interactions here, you clearly would've done well in college with the help.

But again, I'm not suggesting that there aren't multiple racism issues. Try being "an Oreo", that's a whole OTHER set of black problems.

I'm saying to you, and to you Scrib, that none of us can say to the other, "Well, I don't see your problem, I see mine. Hence mine exists, yours is simply a product of your imagination."

See Scrib, if you did in fact say to me "Hey Starship pal you have no idea what it's like to be a poor white guy," I'd say, "Then Scrib buddy, tell me". And I'd assume, based on our previous interactions that these aren't bitter rants but rather the valuable insights of an intelligent man.

And THAT my friends is how we'll beat this thing. I know I get flack for being all Pollyanna, but I don't give a shit. When we ALL join forces, problems tremble because they know their days are numbered.

Legalized racism went on the retreat when southern whites and blacks joined forces and said "This shit has gone on long enough."

All I'm saying is, it's far, far too early to claim victory. We have a ways to go.

It was an honor

Total posts: 1,657
Top