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DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#51: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:12:42 PM

It's hard to fight a nebulous "system" of consensus without instating a system that distinguishes by race de jure. And seeing as the government still holds much of its agricultural policy to compensate for the advent of tractors, I don't think racialized policy, written rather than assumed, will go away when it is no longer needed.

Seriously, just don't worry about race, and you, yourself, won't be a racist. It's not that hard.

edited 19th Jan '12 8:13:23 PM by DomaDoma

Hail Martin Septim!
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#52: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:13:26 PM

@Flyboy: So we're doomed to always be seen as the privileged and racist upperclass?

@Feo: Okay, so we have statistics. What are we supposed to do with them in order to make the world better?

@Wulf: Again, what do I do with this information in order to make the world a better place?

edited 19th Jan '12 8:14:47 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#53: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:14:23 PM

@feo: not arguing the presence or absence of racism as a statistic, that would be stupid. What I'm asking is; if I'm to combat something, I have to first be able to see it. If I'm to help my hypothetical kids (or my not-so-hypothetical nieces and nephews) become better people and build a better society than the one I live in, I need to be able to do things like say "this, right here? this specific thing is because of racism, you need to be careful of it".

Telling them, "because you are white people will treat you better" and not having any solutions, or even any ability to identify specific instances of a problem, does not a better world make.

edited 19th Jan '12 8:15:22 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
kyfhv Since: Aug, 2011
#54: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:15:17 PM

[up][up]That's what were trying to figure out. The right to free and equal education would be good a start.

[down]I think so. I mean, look at the muckrakers in the gilded age and beyond. If society's problems weren't exposed, would they have ever been fixed?

edited 19th Jan '12 8:18:20 PM by kyfhv

feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#55: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:15:45 PM

The fact that I personally don't know of a concrete, step-by-step solution is doesn't mean that there isn't a problem. Nor does it necessarily mean that whatever problem exists should be ignored. Can we take it as an axiom that awareness of a problem increases the likelihood that someone knowledgeable will figure out how to fix it?

Edit: Actually, I do know of a tool to use: self-doubt. If you're aware that in the past, you have acted in a racist manner without realizing it, that ought to help you realize in the future when you're about to do something racist.

edited 19th Jan '12 8:18:03 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
Flyboy Decemberist from the United States Since: Dec, 2011
Decemberist
#56: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:16:27 PM

I think you're wrong, because I and most of the people I know are not consciously racist. True, I've failed those tests of whether you're subconsciously racist, but I will do my part to promote a society in which children will not grow up to be racist, and I believe that if enough other people join me, racism will eventually cease to exist.

I hope I'm wrong. Oh believe me, I hope I'm wrong...

So we're doomed to always be seen as the privileged and racist upperclass?

In essence. Barring any huge, fundamental paradigm shift in how basic humanity and, more specifically, American culture in general, functions...

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#57: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:17:26 PM

@feo: nope, I don't accept that. If a problem exists and is pervasive as is being claimed here, specific examples should be easily identified...or at the least, a method can be put forth to help identify them when they occur.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#58: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:17:37 PM

@Feo: I'm acknowledging that there is a problem. I'm also acknowledging that awareness alone isn't doing anything, because that list was composed in 1988, and it seems as if nothing has changed since then.

Clearly, something else needs to be done.

Edit ninja:

Actually, I do know of a tool to use: self-doubt. If you're aware that in the past, you have acted in a racist manner without realizing it, that ought to help you realize in the future when you're about to do something racist.

And what are some ways in which I can tell that I have acted racist without realizing it? If I'm going to change my behavior, I need to know what to avoid doing.

edited 19th Jan '12 8:19:34 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#59: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:19:02 PM

Am I seriously the only one craning my head at 90% of that list and wondering what planet it comes from?

Hail Martin Septim!
feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#60: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:19:56 PM

I believe in global warming not because every day is warmer, but because the overall pattern is of warmer days. I can't say that any individual day is warm because of global warming.

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#61: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:21:23 PM

@feo: I'm afraid I don't follow your metaphor, maybe I'm being dense.

@Doma Doma: it comes from the planet 1988. cool

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#62: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:21:49 PM

@Feo: I don't get it either. I'm afraid you lost me there.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Flyboy Decemberist from the United States Since: Dec, 2011
Decemberist
#63: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:23:24 PM

The most pertinent example I can think of is how the media portrays poor people.

~66% of American poor people, if I recall correctly, are white. But the vast majority of (unsympathetic) media portrayals of poverty show mostly non-whites as impoverished, and usually as background characters. When the portrayal is intended to be sympathetic, whites are usually made the main characters.

This plays heavily into how racism works, as the association of "non-whites are usually poor" is crucial given the idiotic US conceptualization of "poor = lazy." The fact that non-whites are actually statistically usually poor—thanks to centuries of actual, overt oppression—doesn't help matters.

That, and of course racism—once a simple tool for control—has become an actual, comprehensive mythology ingrained enough that the elites who once used it purely for oppression have now begun drinking their own kool-aid—see: how blacks were treated in 1600s colonial America versus the 1800s Old Confederate (well, not yet, but what would become that) South—and thus actually think that poor whites are better than poor blacks.

It's a horrendously tangled mess, really.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."
feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#64: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:24:35 PM

Forget the metaphor; it doesn't matter.

As for the issue of institutionalized racism, the problem with explaining it and discussing solutions to it is that the issue can be and is the subject of multiple full-length college courses, none of which I have taken. If I may make another analogy (hopefully more successful this time), I can't explain it in this thread for much the same reason I have difficulty explaining evolution—I only know the pop-cultural version of it, not the in-depth science.

edited 19th Jan '12 8:25:08 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
Firebert That One Guy from Somewhere in Illinois Since: Jan, 2001
That One Guy
#65: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:28:51 PM

To clarify my earlier statements, I'm not saying that the white person receiving the privilege is the one at fault.

No, I blame the society that leads to these privileges being given.

That is why it's so important to make people aware of white privilege. Because when people are aware of it they'll be less likely to give said privilege and thus actually promote true equality.

For further clarification, the term "white privilege" is most certainly not a list of things the author believes whites should have, as opposed to everyone else.

edited 19th Jan '12 8:31:58 PM by Firebert

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kyfhv Since: Aug, 2011
#66: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:30:47 PM

Good, equal education and social services for minorities and majorities alike would be a good start.

Also, it appears that minorities are pulled over much more than whites. So perhaps ending the drug war would help alleviate negative stereotypes associated with minorities, and in turn reduce the affect of white privilege?

beyond that,

As for the issue of institutionalized racism, the problem with explaining it and discussing solutions to it is that the issue can be and is the subject of multiple full-length college courses, none of which I have taken.

edited 19th Jan '12 8:32:35 PM by kyfhv

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#67: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:32:39 PM

Am I seriously the only one craning my head at 90% of that list and wondering what planet it comes from?

I couldn't say. But I'm going to guess I'm not the only one craning my heat at you wondering how you could possibly ask a question like that.

I ask you, not combatively, but just to know are you white?

It was an honor
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#68: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:33:23 PM

@Firebert: I'm fairly certain that everyone is aware of it, but very few people actually want to do anything to equalize things. The past half-a-dozen times this thread has come up, I've been lambasted for my suggestion of "forget about white privilege and focus on treating people like humans regardless of race" so I'm trying a different tack this time.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#69: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:34:54 PM

[up] Well here's the thing. As a black American who also used to think as you did, I see it a bit differently.

It's a galling and disrespectful to say to someone "Let's just move on". Wronged people want, at the very least, for their grievance to be acknowledged.

It's kinda like going up to a bleeding gunshot victim and saying "Suck it up" and wondering why they want to stab you.

edited 19th Jan '12 8:36:57 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#70: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:35:31 PM

@feo: I have taken some of the courses you're talking about, and here's the news; the issue is a vast, fiendishly complex web of circumstances and behaviors...and the "White Privilege" argument is a dangerous oversimplification.

Who is rich and who is poor and why? This question has been examined at length by some pretty heavy brainpower, and a definitive answer has so far remained beyond the ken of all of them. as a statistical phenomenon when one looks at the overall picture, yes there is a whites-first bias. But this does not apply in all cases, in all situations, and in every person's life equally.

And as I said earlier, simply wandering through life assuming that everyone around me is acting prejudicial to a greater or lesser degree seems rather insulting.

Take, for example, the neighborhood in which I live. It is predominantly Hispanic; I'm one of two white people that live on my street. I've been here for seven years (closer to eight at this point actually) and have never gotten to know any of my neighbors. Now, an outside observer might assume that this is because I'm racist against Hispanics and don't want to associate with them...I in turn might assume that they are being prejudicial against me because they've never made any effort to welcome me into their community.

OR, both sides could be more charitable and go with a more logical explanation...that a language barrier (most of them speak broken English at best I've found) plus a cultural divide means that we'd all rather just interact with people similar to ourselves rather than expend the extra effort involved in getting to know someone we in all likelihood won't have much in common with anyway.

So I don't hate them, or feel slighted, and from what little interaction I have had with my neighbors over the years they don't seem to either.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Firebert That One Guy from Somewhere in Illinois Since: Jan, 2001
That One Guy
#71: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:37:30 PM

I still hear enough complaints about stuff like Affirmative Action and the like to get the impression there are still many who don't recognize white privilege. And I've heard such complaints by influential businessmen and other college graduates/adults.

edited 19th Jan '12 8:38:05 PM by Firebert

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TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#72: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:38:38 PM

[up][up] Scrib, excellent point.

[up] Like I said, there're blacks like myself who thought, and think, the same.

It's always been easier to say "It's no big deal", cause then you absolve yourself of actually tackling the issue.

edited 19th Jan '12 8:40:13 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#73: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:40:48 PM

I get the impression you're overextending what I've said into things I wouldn't say and don't believe. (The "white oppressor" comment wasn't because I think I'm an oppressor, but because I'm used to being treated as one when this subject comes up.) Anyways, there are plenty of studies to point to that indicate that people underestimate their racism ("Whites in our study were less likely to want to watch a movie with a primarily black cast than a movie with a primarily white cast but an identical premise!" "Whites in our study were less likely to say that a black person's resume was impressive than that a white person's identical resume was impressive!"), but I'm not saying everyone acts racist in all situations.

edited 19th Jan '12 8:41:34 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#74: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:40:58 PM

I still hear enough complaints about stuff like Affirmative Action and the like to get the impression there are still many who don't recognize white privilege. And I've heard such complaints by influential businessmen and other college graduates/adults.

Assholes aside (and they are plentiful, no argument there) this is the result of taking statistical data and assuming its evenly distributed.

EDIT

I'm not saying everyone acts racist in all situations.

So if I can't assume it's always happening, how do I identify it when it is happening? As y'all are fond of saying...the first step of solving a problem is identifying that there is a problem, and that applies to individual situations too, yo.

edited 19th Jan '12 8:45:12 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#75: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:44:01 PM

[up] Yet another reason I choose not to drink the stats Kool-aid.

So if I can't assume it's always happening, how do I identify it when it is happening?

As someone highly sensitive to perceived racism, BUT, very, very, very careful not to label everything racism, I find that, like many things, it's gut reaction combined with a healthy dose of calm, cool, collected reasoning.

I've been in stores and gotten what could've been the "that black guy is gonna steal something" look from the staff. Or....it could've been nothing more than...well, let's face it how many black guys do walk into an Abercrombie store?? Or maybe it was nothing.

Now, if I find that no matter in the store I go I notice the same surveillance, now it's not a "feeling". At which point, perhaps I'll speak up.

edited 19th Jan '12 8:48:21 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

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