I don't like the idea that anyone should be obligated to feel guilty for something they honestly can't help, such as the circumstances they were born in. Just because I think that people shouldn't feel guilty just for being white doesn't mean they won't feel guilty, though: people feel guilty all the time for things they couldn't help. Emotions are not rational.
edited 24th Jan '12 9:52:27 AM by Katrika
"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - NarbonicYeah, you do have a point there. I witnessed the phenomenon while participating in the OWS movement; people weren't so much hyper-aware of racism and race relations as they were simply focusing on different issues, and thus everyone got along.
It's my estimation that if we went after poverty, a good many other problems (ignorance, lack of opportunity, and yes, racism) would start to become less dislocating to society as a whole. As I've mentioned in other threads on this topic, I think those at the top encourage us to squabble over race and privilege because it benefits them.
If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~The thing is, "if we all team up against our common enemies, other discrimination will just fade away" is not something that has a lot of historical precedent.
I mean, to use the feminist movement as an example, many of the biggest criticisms within the movement have been that the improvements in female status brought about by feminism have been predominantly improvements for middle-class, educated, white women. Women who don't fit these categories, from other races or those in poverty have historically often felt alienated within the movement, because in a movement claiming to represent all women, the desires of these particular women are being ignored.
I've heard similar arguments within the LGBT circles and to certain aspects of politics (urban vs suburban vs rural poverty), too, so it's not just an outlier; the fact that the powerful wealthy oppress and have lead rise to a biased system to many diverse people ignores that these diverse people can experience that oppression and systemic bias in different ways. And the people who speak for a particular movement don't always remember to fight against the particular manifestations of bias that they personally haven't experienced.
The owner of this account is temporarily unavailable. Please leave your number and call again later.Hm....good point. Let me clarify.
I mean that the majority of whites today bear no specific agenda against non-whites. In other words the Mississippi Burning-type racists are a bit of a fossil.
What we're dealing with now is more people like "Loan Officer Matt". Good people, honest people who, if they are perpertrating priviligism, are doing it subconsciously.
If you only met the people I've met who are honestly taken aback when I tell them that the "fried-chicken" thing is actually not funny....
It was an honorI'm hopping into this thread without having read the last 20 pages.
People of color are oppressed at all economic levels. Eradicating poverty would be a really good step (it was one of Dr. King's ideas), but it's not a one-size-fits-all solution to White privilege, or many other privileges.
I mean that the majority of whites today bear no specific agenda against non-whites.
It is true that the agenda of White USA citizens as a whole is not overtly racist. The ideology of White supremacy really is a thing of the past, and we should celebrate that fact. However, many White people are explicitly against kinds of social change that destroy White privilege. The majority opinion is not "against non-Whites" per se, but it is pro-White: Pro-White at the disadvantage of non-Whites.
The average White opinion is not intentionally disadvantageous toward people of color. Lot's of White people have voted or at least spoken against policies of redress like affirmative action, mostly because they erroneously believe that the USA is a leveled playing field. They don't have hierarchical intentions, but opposing affirmative action is certainly a privilege reifying action.
A very recent study done by Harvard and Tufts Universities
shows the majority of White people believe that they are the most oppressed group in society. This distorted view of reality reifies White privilege by falsely advantaging people of color and disadvantaging Whites, resulting in public discourses (which become public policies) that result in the eradication of racial societal redress (affirmative action) that people of color so desperately need.
edited 24th Jan '12 2:09:21 PM by Grain
Anime geemu wo shinasai!
THANK YOU
Also, that study is horrifying, how can that many people be so naive?
@Thread
Look guys, if the only thing you can take away from "minorities are disadvantaged and white people are priveleged" is "white people should feel GUILTY" that's your problem, because in no way does acknowledging inequality necessitate guilt.
What does necessitate guilt is not trying to rectify this.
edited 24th Jan '12 2:10:09 PM by stripesthezebra
@Stripes - Accurate to the last. But.....don't be too harsh that some hear "privilege" and think it means "guilty".
Racism is America's great shame, it's our own Nazism. We should look at it as good that whites today, just like modern Germans, are horrified to the point of being...extra...in disassociating themselves from it.
It was an honorGoing back to my earlier analogy, the cancerous tumor that was legalized racism has been blasted to hell and back with the chemotherapy of the Civil Rights movement, and is now in remission. But...the trauma from the cancer and the treatment still lingers throughout the whole body, and it is this point that we find ourselves.
White Americans too are part of the organs and tissues of the American body struggling to return to health. I'd go so far to say that they too are victims of America's legal racist past.
And perhaps we need to start treating them as that; victims. Many are still dealing with them with this erroneous notion that they're still redneck country dickheads run amok, or else privileged hipsters too concerned with being green and listening to indie rock to care.
The whites who oppose affirmative action are doing it less out of racist dickery and more out of lack of knowledge. Many of them have never lived in a ghetto, never been followed in a store, have never had someone's parents get visibly upset over their child bringing them home.
I feel like, sometimes, ..we're getting angry at them for not knowing how to properly remove a bullet, and yet few of them have even seen a gun.
It's for us colored and non-white Americans to educate our fellow citizens. And this begins by moving from "Stupid Whitey, how could you say some dumb shit like that?" to "I realize this might not have occurred to you, but...."
edited 24th Jan '12 4:15:19 PM by TheStarshipMaxima
It was an honor"Stupid Whitey, how could you say some dumb shit like that"
No body is calling anybody "Stupid Whitey", and white people aren't victims. The US is one of the most powerful, well of countries on Earth, if some (or a majority of, according to the statistics Grain gave us) White people are ignorant of the manifestation of racism, there is absolutely no good reason for it. They should broaden their views a little, instead of constantly telling themselves that racism is imagined.
edited 24th Jan '12 4:24:42 PM by stripesthezebra
You might not agree Stripes, but I've met enough of them face-to-face that I'm confident in my assessment.
There are PLENTY of good reasons not to know the extent of white exceptionalism and white privilege. And you say they should "broaden their horizons" a little.
How? The United States is 20% black American, with the majority in major urban areas. It is quite possible to go well into your mid-20s before laying eyes on a black person.
Getting harassed in a store; do you expect a white person to walk up to a cashier and say "Do me a favor, I'm trying to get a handle on this racism thing, so would you mind pretending I'm a sketchy negro and follow me a bit please?".
If they speed on a highway, and the cop pulls them over and let's them off with a warning, should they say "Excuse me officer. But I believe you only gave me a warning due my being white. Please be fair and write me a ticket."??
edited 24th Jan '12 4:29:03 PM by TheStarshipMaxima
It was an honor@Stripes: Unfortunately, white people can be discriminated against, and that should bear some acknowledgement. Pretending that we're always the aggressors and never the victim is just as ridiculous as us pretending racism doesn't exist.
Racism isn't "something that only happens to black people", it's something that anyone can be the target of.
And before you tell me that I'm wrong, I'd like to tell you that I have been discriminated against because I'm white. I've been physically assaulted because I'm white. I may be in the minority here, but it does happen.
"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -DrunkscriblerianRacism isn't "something that only happens to black people", it's something that anyone can be the target of.
And before you tell me that I'm wrong, I'd like to tell you that I have been discriminated against because I'm white. I've been physically assaulted because I'm white. I may be in the minority here, but it does happen.
When people discriminate against minorities, it is because they perceive them as ignorant, inept, ill-mannered, uneducated, dangerous, bad-tempered, and shady.
When people discriminate against whites, it is because they perceive them as entitled, selfish, prejudiced, wasteful, offensive, and megalomaniacal.
Even the nature of the bias against whites points to white privilege.
You are a blowfish.Even the nature of the bias against whites points to white privilege.
But like discrimination against blacks, it's based on a perception that is not a good basis for reality. Many, many white people are of a lower socioeconomic class than the American average (in fact, more than half of all Americans, as the average is pulled up by incredibly rich people).
I'd also like to point out that only two of the descriptors you used were indicative of privilege: entitled (although if that's an attitude it doesn't necessarily point to privilege, because plenty of unprivileged people have entitlement complexes) and wasteful. Selfish, prejudiced, offensive, and megalomaniacal do not point toward privilege.
Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.In no order:
...now, I realize that not everyone lives in cities, but I have to say that here in Chicago it is very much NOT possible to do this.
Let me quote this guy
in saying, "It’s possible for racism against whites to exist, but it happens way, way, way, way, way more infrequently that white people think."
EDIT: Oh, and yet another video drop:
edited 24th Jan '12 5:20:06 PM by BlackHumor

Once, again, I will restate, we all acknowledge that 88% of the whites today have never engaged in or perpertrated any form of priviligism. When counting tropers, I'd say it's 100%.
This discussion is more about "this is a systemic problem", and less "Fuck whitey."
After all...I'm poor, and according to the statistics I'm hearing about a good portion of black America shares my problem. I can feel sympathy for that, considering I'm living it right now. I'm curious to see the results if both groups could be all "okay, we've got differences we can't control, but this thing right here? Yeah, that makes us brothers".
Just sayin'.
To be honest though, Scrib, that's what's happening right now. Especially in urban areas, where people of all races literally have no choice but to interact with each other, we're all beginning to see the race paradigm for the smokescreen it is. Add to that the internet, and I am fully confident that systemic race bias is a defeated foe; it's only a matter of cutting of its head and leaving it to bleed out.
It was an honor