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DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#401: Jan 23rd 2012 at 7:27:27 AM

Me, I say that for Jews, Israel is Moria, great sacred homeland and all that but the bloody history is graven so deep there that it's pretty much awoken literal demons. America is the Glittering Caves, brand new and relatively culture-less, but it's sure pretty and the local king doesn't have any problem with you. Be smart, guys.

[up] Wallowing has something to do with it. (Also, the trend of black illegitimacy that started in the '70s. Seriously, single parents don't raise kids as well as two parents do; take some damned responsibility, men.)

edited 23rd Jan '12 7:30:54 AM by DomaDoma

Hail Martin Septim!
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#402: Jan 23rd 2012 at 7:31:24 AM

You do realize that Israel wasn't really for American Jews, right?

DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#403: Jan 23rd 2012 at 7:32:28 AM

America isn't really for European Jews either, but even so, it's a pretty good place.

Hail Martin Septim!
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#404: Jan 23rd 2012 at 7:35:56 AM

[up][up][up]But how much "wallowing" is there really? You seem to imply that blacks in the USA really do not want to advance in life, and that this is because of "grievances". But... real life just doesn't work that way I think. You don't think of a single issuze like that 24/7, and you just do try to come ahead in life (if some with greater ambition with others, but I don't think that has to do with race).

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#405: Jan 23rd 2012 at 7:37:33 AM

Do you really want to have to deal with the forced immigration of five million angry Israelis?

DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#406: Jan 23rd 2012 at 7:39:11 AM

It's not that they don't want to. It's that they are repeatedly told, especially by the people considered their allies, that they can't. Futility is not a great attitude if you want to make it in society. Failure is more likely than not if you try, but failure among those who think the struggle is pointless is 100%.

Who said anything about forcing immigration? Why do you keep bringing this up? "Be smart" = "voluntarily choose the smarter option".

edited 23rd Jan '12 7:40:00 AM by DomaDoma

Hail Martin Septim!
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#407: Jan 23rd 2012 at 7:42:16 AM

What they're "told" is that they will face difficulties - but they don't even need to be told that. Those difficulties are very real, and they do experience them. So you really can't say that for ethnic minorities reality is depicted darker than it really is. Personally, I find "White Privilege" or "Male Privilege" to be very problematic concepts - but that doesn't mean there aren't still social problems for ethnic minorities and women.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
whaleofyournightmare Decemberist from contemplation Since: Jul, 2011
Decemberist
#408: Jan 23rd 2012 at 7:42:57 AM

Personally, I think Doma is arguing from the view that the American Dream is achievable by all regardless of race and gender for whatever reason and the only reason that most blacks haven't escaped is because individuals are lazy etc . What they dont realise is that the American Dream is now probably an illusion for most and blacks are disproportionally trapped into a perpetual poverty cycle.

Dutch Lesbian
DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#409: Jan 23rd 2012 at 7:47:11 AM

White people are not as racist as you think. A little bit racist - they skew somewhat against resumes written by people named Tyrone - but that "trained to hate and fear" malarkey in the quiz at the beginning is... counterproductive, to say the least.

[up] Yeah, I'm poor myself, and probably won't end up earning four hundred grand a year even if I particularly want to. But if I say "oh, come on, me, manage a store district? The American Dream is bullshit, everyone knows that", then I've thrown the game before it's started.

edited 23rd Jan '12 7:50:49 AM by DomaDoma

Hail Martin Septim!
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#410: Jan 23rd 2012 at 7:56:46 AM

Um. You really don't understand Israelis, do you.

Also it would probably create a preferred immigration crisis. Not good.

DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#411: Jan 23rd 2012 at 8:01:02 AM

Oh, I see, you're coming from a "the government must do everything" angle. That explains it.

Could we get back to Clicketykeys, #377? That actually looks like a decent attempt at problem-solving. I won't do #2 because I hate art-house films, and #5 can translate all too easily to "HERE ARE SOME EGGSHELLS, WALK ON THEM", but the other three really don't seem like bad notions.

Hail Martin Septim!
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#412: Jan 23rd 2012 at 8:11:32 AM

Oh, I see, you're coming from a "the government must do everything" angle. That explains it.

Where did you get this from?

And 'quality entertainment from non-privileged groups' is a pretty broad category to hate. Especially since it doesn't exclusively translate to 'arthouse movies'.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Drakyndra Her with the hat from Somewhere Since: Jan, 2001
Her with the hat
#413: Jan 23rd 2012 at 8:13:30 AM

I find it very strange to hear the discrimination against black people in America referred to as "historical", when most of the major progress of the civil rights movement occurred during my parents' lifetimes.

America isn't more than two generations from discrimination as government policy. (Not that Australia is any better on that account). That is really not a long time ago.

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DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#414: Jan 23rd 2012 at 8:15:53 AM

Films by small studios, in just about every case I've seen, have evolved extreme pretentious plotlessness to survive.

The government bit involved me saying individual Israelis should try to emigrate to America because Israel isn't worth the hassle, and Cats thinking I meant that the Israeli government should opt out of its own existence.

edited 23rd Jan '12 8:16:42 AM by DomaDoma

Hail Martin Septim!
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#415: Jan 23rd 2012 at 8:18:50 AM

I think most people on this forum consider it historical because they learned about it pretty much exclusively in history class.

Also. Somebody, please explain to me where this "oreo" stuff is coming from?

I am also saying that individual Israelis would not buy that moving to America is the better option.

edited 23rd Jan '12 8:20:38 AM by ohsointocats

DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#416: Jan 23rd 2012 at 8:28:33 AM

And why is that? Because they hold the belief that history equates to an immutable destiny. Their loss.

Hail Martin Septim!
whaleofyournightmare Decemberist from contemplation Since: Jul, 2011
Decemberist
#417: Jan 23rd 2012 at 8:35:29 AM

No, because the United States is a foreign country. Most people choose to try to change the system from within.

What you're saying is that MLK should have moved to Europe or whereever instead of fighting Jim Crow laws.

Dutch Lesbian
Clicketykeys Since: Sep, 2010
#418: Jan 23rd 2012 at 8:37:45 AM

I won't do #2 because I hate art-house films

Not just films - think TV shows, comics, music, manga, novels, popular nonfiction... all sorts of media. If you look, you can find good stuff. And with the accessibility of social media, it's much easier to do so than it used to be - and also to pass it along.

I think it was on the Racebending thread that someone mentioned a movie about Haitian history. I would TOTALLY support a kickstarter campaign if I knew of one.

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#419: Jan 23rd 2012 at 8:43:47 AM

It would be like telling all Americans to move to Canada because it's better, and that would probably be an easier sell.

Also, getting rid of Israel will not spontaneously cause peace in the Middle East, like how nuking the US to the precambrian era would not spontaneously cause world peace. It is not that simple.

DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#420: Jan 23rd 2012 at 8:46:47 AM

[up][up]Hey, not bad.

[up][up][up] Yeah, okay. Israel is in serious need of a "keep the fence up because we're not suicidal but maybe some kid's outreach programs and loosen that blockade, like, a lot" political faction, and I'm sure someone is up to it. Proportional representation is nice that way. But vis-a-vis blacks, America is well past that sort of political change, and the younger Americans are, the less racist they tend to be. Just patience and a recognition of common humanity should carry us through.

[up] Seriously, what part of "individual decision" do you not get?

edited 23rd Jan '12 8:52:54 AM by DomaDoma

Hail Martin Septim!
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#421: Jan 23rd 2012 at 10:07:21 AM

@Doma: I'm seriously getting annoyed at your attempts to tell black (and a whole bunch of other) people what their problems are.

Not that I think you have bad intentions, but what you're saying is like telling a mugging victim to suck it up.

edited 23rd Jan '12 10:07:45 AM by BlackHumor

TheGloomer Since: Sep, 2010
#422: Jan 23rd 2012 at 10:35:09 AM

I'm still kinda troubled by the brief Ireland thing from the last couple of pages myself...

DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#423: Jan 23rd 2012 at 11:23:37 AM

Well, you know what? I would say that. If you're mugged or think you might be, a) look into concealed carry, and b) don't let it keep you from going outside; that's worse in the end than losing your wallet.

(EDIT: Also go to the police.)

edited 23rd Jan '12 11:24:48 AM by DomaDoma

Hail Martin Septim!
BlackElephant Obsidian Proboscidean from In the Room Since: Oct, 2011
Obsidian Proboscidean
#424: Jan 23rd 2012 at 11:40:05 AM

Regarding the Irish, would it be completely irrelevant to say that they were not always considered white?

And why is that? Because they hold the belief that history equates to an immutable destiny. Their loss.

Some people don't believe slavery and past black history should matter. But when they're given evidence that it should, in the form of other people acting like it matters, well...It's kind of hard to ignore it.

And people tend to (unconsciously or consciously) fall in with popular views. It's kind of part of being a social animal.

edited 23rd Jan '12 11:41:49 AM by BlackElephant

I'm an elephant. Rurr.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#425: Jan 23rd 2012 at 12:07:42 PM

Doma, you're not really into the notion of lasting psychological damage, are you?

What's precedent ever done for us?

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