I'm not going to defend the prequel's acting or dialogue, and I agree that a lot of the dialogue in Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones is unbearable to watch. But so were the originals. "I'd no sooner kiss a Wookiee!" "I can arrange that, you could use a good kiss!" I personally find THAT painful to listen to as well. There are plenty of other examples. Revenge of the Sith had such moments too, like "you're breaking my heart!" like you mentioned, but they were much fewer. Plus, it had that whole speech Obi-Wan gives to Anakin, which was heartbreakingly awesome. And Palpatine's talk to Anakin about Darth Plagious was equally awesome, and appropriately sinister. Again, this is all my opinion. If you disagree with it, fine. But don't tell me I'm wrong for liking this. I am a human with my own opinion, and that's no more wrong than you with your opinion.
I disagree with pretty much all of this. George Lucas has always had a vision of what Star Wars was in his mind, and how otherworldly the locations and technology looked. In the original trilogy, with that period of technology he was unable to fully realize his vision. So you can't blame him for going crazy with CGI for the environments in the prequels: he wanted to show his true vision of the Star Wars universe, and now he was able to do so. And you know what? In my opinion, the environments look amazing! I don't care if they used greenscreen, unless there's some other magical way to have humans in a completely alien environment that cannot be convincingly built on a set that I haven't heard of. And most of the prequel's environments fit that criteria! Do you realize if he made an actual set for the Jedi Temple how freakin' BIG it'd have to be? There's no way he could've built it with practical effects! So he did the same thing Peter Jackson did when making 1933 New York in King Kong: he built only part of it, and made the rest with CGI. And I don't see people whining about how obviously greenscreen the New York in King Kong was. I guess that since it's not an alien environment, it looks more real, but that's kind of obvious, don't you think?
Oh look, more "you're wrong" again. First off, there is no shift between action-adventure and sci-fi: the action-adventure's still there, they just ADDED sci-fi. And yes, the complaints to that CAN be traced to Nostalgia Filter. If it's not the exact same "perfection" as it was before, and if it's added a genre that wasn't there in the older ones, then cue the complaining. Sounds like Nostalgia Filter to me. And actually, I was kind of late in seeing the original Indiana Jones movies: I saw them only a few years before Crystal Skull came out. Except for a lot more CGI and an alien subplot, I didn't see too big of a difference. I saw the same environments, the same crazy action sequences, the same ancient-civilization plots, the same tribal-people-chasing-heroes, the same style of comedy, and so on. I could understand the complaints people had with Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, and even parts of Revenge of the Sith. But by Crystal Skull, I could tell people were just complaining because they weren't the originals. Again, though, that's my view on the matter.
I'm sorry, but as soon as you said "He was not some film legend" I couldn't take the rest of this paragraph seriously. Creating the highest-grossing movies of the time, right after two other cinematic classics, and nearly single-handedly inventing a type of film (summer blockbuster) still excessively popular to this day ISN'T enough of a legend for you? George Lucas is considered to be one of Hollywood's most influential directors. Of ALL TIME. That seems kind of legendary to me.
This sounds like more opinion-claiming-to-be-fact to me. My opinion is, the climax of Sith is amazing because all this bad stuff is built up to its climax here, and the full extent of Palpatine's villainy is shown in complete glory. I see some of your other points, such as the Yoda/Palpatine and Obi-Wan/Anakin fights being separate from each other, but that seems like nitpicking, and that isn't enough to bring it down for me.
Thank you for continuing to state your opinions as if they are fact. Now, I did say that I thought the lightsaber fights in Sith are the best, but I also said "IMO". You're talking as if you're discussing concrete fact: the lightsaber fights in Empire and Jedi are the best. Factually. Objectively. And to that I say, "bullshit." I'm not saying they're bad, in fact I do enjoy them immensely, but the fights in the prequel trilogy, IMO, looked so much more like JEDI fighting than just two choreographed actors. It felt more fantastic to me. And seeing as this is Star Wars, a fantasy, I consider that a good thing.
IMO, it had MORE tension than the trench run, or the Falcon's escape from the Death Star. Why? Because with all the things attacking them and menacing them, or as you call it, the "shit thrown at the audience," it felt like they were in more danger to me. The scenes you mentioned were limited by the effects of the time, and kind of felt empty to me. When I picture Star Wars space battles, two of them come to my mind first: the opening Revenge of the Sith battle, and the climax of Return of the Jedi.
I agree that was pretty emotional. But IMO, a mother dying right as her babies are born, with Obi-Wan holding these children, who are left with a dead mother and an evil father, trumps it. As does the whole ending with everything being put together. I do think that the "NOOOOOO!!!" was pretty bad. But I don't care: the rest of the ending made up for it.
Well, you're not going to find it in any Star Wars movie. My point is, complaining about the bad acting in the prequels as if they ruin the movie, and then praising the originals, seems rather hypocritical to me.
To you.
To you. To me, they MADE Vader.
I actually agree with this. I do think he should stop editing the originals. They were products of their time. Keep them as such.
Again, to you it wasn't done well. That doesn't mean as a fact it wasn't done well.
I think I'm done. Even if you reply to this (which I have no doubt you will) I'm not going to fight back. My opinion will always continue to stand, as will yours. Thus, I don't feel like arguing. In fact, I was done earlier, but seeing as you brought it up again and continued to dissect my points, I figured I'd reply this once. But I'm done.
edited 26th Jan '12 1:31:29 PM by Extreme64
OK, can we turn down the anger a wee bit here and show a little respect for one another's opinions, please? Whether or not a movie sucked is always going to be an opinion. If you want to challenge something, do so with reasoned arguments, don't just go "you're wrong" and don't make accusations like "you're just nostalgic". That's not how you argue in good faith.
And please don't use words like "rape" that way. Not appropriate.
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The Staff[[/quoteblock]]Why? Because with all the things attacking them and menacing them, or as you call it, the "shit thrown at the audience, " it felt like they were in more danger to me.[[/quoteblock]] What was really meancing them? They have one head on pass with droid fighters after which Obi tells Anakin not to get involved and they fly on. They get a couple missles lobbed at them which were just the most nonsense things I have ever seen. Hell, they used the droids that came out of them as an opportunity for comedy. When you're yucking it up for laughs its not a menacing scene.
edited 27th Jan '12 8:36:26 AM by Tyyrlym
"Tyyr's a necessary evil. " SpiritCould you give any examples of this from the original trilogy? Just so I know where to begin as I jump into the fray.
edited 27th Jan '12 12:42:16 PM by TheBatPencil
And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)I never understood why so many people argued that Luke was whiny. Yeah, he complains a bit... in the first 15 minutes of the movie. But taking into account that he discovers the charred corpses of the only family he's ever known, I'd say he handles himself pretty well. Hell the entire trilogy seems designed to throw crap on him and he still comes across as a young guy gradually maturing into a strong and responsible Jedi.
Indeed.
Part of what made the final scenes on the Death Star so compelling to Vader's character was the fact that we could see the whole conflict running through his head despite the fact that he says nothing and is wearing an expressionless mask. The character and his development is written well enough that, through just two or three close ups, we can see what the character is thinking without being explicitly told.
Naturally they took a sledgehammer to this in the newest edition, but the situation in Revenge of the Sith was so much worse because Character Development in the entire trilogy consisted of us being told rather than shown before concluding in the most hamfisted and unnecessary Big "NO!" imaginable.
And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)![]()
Luke's not really whiny. Just boring.
Yep. That scene had actual subtlety. And we can't have subtlety in Star Wars. Else Lucas would throw a hissy fit.
Alec Guiness as Obi Wan,he has less emotion than Hayden Christensen.Why did Mac Gregor study this guy when he had all the chance to add more? Even with all the dull surprise,once the dialogue got better,the guy managed to do the impossible,merge Dull Surprise with Large Ham. Even Carrie Fisher doesn't have that charm seen in The Empire Strikes Back
On that note Luke was incredibly whiny during all the Yoda scenes to. Equally so compared to Attack Of The Clones,which only gets called out because the topic which is whined about doesn't change.
Also I'll take that Big "NO!" (which is Hayden's fault for making that cliche motion) over "Your powers are weak old man" or half the attempted ham that didn't fit Vader at all. As for "Only the Sith deal in absolutes",everyone has clearly missed the point on that one.
Obi-Wan was not saying "Only the Sith make absolutes",and it's not some kind of Moral Myopia statement like so many say. It's him being like "Okay,Anakin's gonna kill me,so I guess I cannot negotiate out of this one"
Have to admit,Matt Stover definitely handled the whole thing better and I wish he wrote all the prequel novelizations
Luke's complaints vs. Anakin complaints. Its an issue of context.
Luke was doing so as part of his learning process with Yoda and realizing the solutions and hidden answers to the problems he was vocalizing. "What I am I even doing here?" Yoda is actually already here. "Even with the force there's no way I can lift the X-Wing." Yes he can.
Anakin's frustrated pieces of dialogue are an admitted part of his characterization but because he's not actually learning doing many of them against against Obi-Wan/Jedi behind their back, at times it just seems like he's bitching about things because he feels like it.
Plus I think there was a bit of understanding for Luke given he's on a strange planet learning about a mystical phenomena from a decidedly odd mentor vs. Anakin who's raising a stink about matters that just sound far too typical and everyday for most people to be really sympathetic about. "Oh so your teacher doesn't understand you and you aren't getting the respect you deserve; well cry me a river asshole."
Not saying its justified, but I can see how different the two come across.
I agree that Ewan Mc Gregor was wrong to try and outright replicate what Alec Guinness did, but not for the same reason. Right off the bat, this contradicts what was established about his younger days in Empire.
Also, it makes sense that Alec Guinness is a bit dull: he's an old man now, more experienced and knowledgable and far, far more in control of his emotions and impulses than young Luke. He's supposed to be the example for Luke to follow, wise, patient and in control when Luke is young and rash and stupid.
This didn't work in the new trilogy for a few reasons. Firstly, he's supposed to be younger, less wise and more emotionally invested in his best friend (in fact, this one line
gives a greater sense of caring and friendshup than anything in the new trilogy between Obi Wan and Anakin). Secondly, he's the lead character and is supposed to have more depth than that.
Of course, almost every character is bland dull in the new trilogy (looking at you, Natalie Portman) so I can only assume that the actors have no idea how their characters are feeling. I smell bad direction.
Ok, so what is it that automatically makes a character being "whiny" bad?
He's stuck in a horrible swamp with a patronising little goblin who pushes him to his physical and mental limit while never saying anything without being cryptic. Of course he's going to get frustrated and complain, because he isn't a robot and this is how we relate to what the character is going through and remain interested in him.
Compare and contrast the part with Anakin and Padme on Tatooine in Clones. Everything is so heavy handed and false that it just doesn't work. A quiet, reflective scene without dialogue showing Anakin breaking down gets the point across without turning him into a creepy psychotic murderer. Because "creepy psychotic murderer" doesn't fit the profile of someone whose fall could ever be considered tragic.
Obi-Wan was not saying "Only the Sith make absolutes", and it's not some kind of Moral Myopia statement like so many say. It's him being like "Okay, Anakin's gonna kill me, so I guess I cannot negotiate out of this one"
But because no one apparently read the script, it comes across as a silly, not-thought-out attempt at forcing in An Aesop on moral relativity in a series where the good guys are all warm, friendly and likeable and the villains all Space!Nazis led by the Grim Reaper.
edited 29th Jan '12 11:00:28 AM by TheBatPencil
And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)People mock the "Only Sith deal in absolutes" line but Obi-Wan didn't say "Only Sith use absolutes." He's describing the ideology differences between Jedi and Sith, that Anakin is now behaving as a Sith would. You can imagine that the entire time preparing himself to confront Anakin he was hoping he was merely confused or coerced, only to find that Anakin actually turned to the Sith. Hence his final words before the duel was "I will do what I must."
And there is supposed to be a contrast between how Luke behaved and how Anakin did things. Luke noticeably grew up quickly after he saw Obi-Wan stuck down, and his "whiney" behavior with Yoda was due to eagerness and not bitching about how life was unfair. By ROTJ he had grown into an adult, and any whiney behavior was due to the indignity of being lied to. Anakin wasn't really whiney in TPM, and his attitude in AOTC seemed to be from all the emotional baggage he carried. By ROTS he had noticeably matured, but let that emotional baggage fester inside until it made him snap.
Well I have nothing against him whining against his teacher,that was only once and when you see Obi-Wan do the same thing,it's kinda justified. I'm talking about how he consistently whines about "wishing away my feelings" over and over.
I agree that Luke is justified in whining a little bit,sort of like how in The Karate Kid Daniel has every right to whine when Miyagi only gives chores. But if watched too many times,you eventually just wanna get away from that part. It's sort of like how in the Avatar The Last Airbender Aang is The Pollyana at first even though he lost everyone by sleeping a hundred years. Bryke knew no one would want a whiner.
To be honest I hate Natalie Portman's portrayal of Amidala more than I hate Christensen (Who combined Large Ham and Dull Surprise and can really pull of pure hatred) or Lloyd (who is a kid for crying out loud,how many good kid actors can you name that aren't Haley Joel Osment,Elijah Wood,or Macualay Culkin?)
Also who the heck was it that said George Lucas can't make a convincing Face–Heel Turn? They are right,but not becuase of the idiot assumption Anakin was just always bad and power-hungry. It's implied he only wanted the power to save those he loved,and really he was more Chaotic Good than anything else.
edited 30th Jan '12 11:22:38 AM by terlwyth
First, you only need to find one kid out of the whole universe to play the part. Second, it was Lucas's choice to make him that age and to give him that large of a part. He could have written Anakin as, say, a twelve-year-old, or he could have made him do less.
I've heard some people refer to a "Child Actor Syndrome" where the script asks too much of a young actor (usually anyone under the age of 14-15). The end result destroys the suspension of disbelief because they are simply unable to handle the emotional level being asked to accomplish. Certainly there are child actors capable of great things (some are capable of outperforming the adult actors if given the chance), but the job of the director is to find the right emotional tone and tailor the performance to the strengths of the actor.
Jake Lloyd gave a decent performance in Jingle All The Way (although the movie itself wasn't that good), so this all really goes back to how well the director handles the actors.
What?!? Jake Lloyd was even more wooden,and I really cannot name one scene he did a good performance in.
In The Phantom Menace on the other hand,the parting from his mother was actually decent.
True Chris Columbus managed a great run with the Harry Potter trio,and of course Macualay Culkin,...but those are still exceptions
The reality is far more like The Last Airbender on that stuff
edited 29th Jan '12 7:53:20 PM by terlwyth

There's also plenty of other things to criticise, validly, that are not Nostalgia filter issues. Blithely dismissing all criticism of the movie as Nostalgia filter is just wrong.
I know it's been dulled with time but the first time I ever heard that phrase it was like a nuclear weapon. All the potential emotion in Rot S was killed off by the horrid dialogue and bad acting.
When someone who's not a trained swordsman looks at a fight and asks, "Why don't you just stab him?" and the only answer is fanwank mumbo-jumbo that's not mentioned at all in the movies something is wrong. While you're right that the prequel fights failed for other reasons, they also fail because half the moves in them are stupid, obviously so.
edited 26th Jan '12 8:02:11 AM by Tyyrlym
"Tyyr's a necessary evil. " Spirit