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Alright, so in TRS Badass Gay came up for discussion and it was agreed that there appears to big problem with the Badass X tropes in general, which needs to be sorted out until something can be ruled on for Badass Gay.

Here's a courtesy link: TRS page. And Badass page with its subtropes. You can also visit the sandbox page here.

Noted Problems include:

  • Tropes are just listings of characters people thing are badass who happen to have a certain trait. (The Badass + Trait Problem)
  • Badass X as a naming scheme is actually very vague and doesn't give a lot of insight into what the character trope actually is, assuming it is a trope.
  • Badass X as a naming scheme proliferates the use of Badass + Trait 'tropes'.

Suggested things to do include:

  • Make it a requirement that a badass character trope means a character is "badass because of a trait", or "badass in spite of a trait".
  • Renaming away from the Badass X naming scheme as much as possible.
  • Cut, redefine or re-purpose things that are just Badass + trait.

There are also a lot of tropes that seem to be valid character-types, but have the naming scheme 'Badass X', when there's more to the trope than that. There are also a lot of prop or event or whatever tropes that need to be gone through as well.

Edited by Berrenta on May 15th 2020 at 7:39:14 AM

lexicon Since: May, 2012
#1201: Sep 5th 2015 at 10:58:12 AM

I agree about the Action Survivor and Damsel in Distress. I've seen examples that say that this one character did this one thing so she's a badass but that seems like it's making it way too wide. Maybe there could be a page for when a character did one impressive thing.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#1202: Sep 5th 2015 at 11:07:28 AM

Nah, that's just not an example. That one got agreed on a long time ago. Now, if an Action Survivor or a Damsel in Distress does that sort of thing enough, then Took a Level in Badass applies, and we have a couple tropes for genuine badasses in damsel situations, but "Did one thing once" doesn't apply.

Not 100% sure about the "has to know they're a badass" thing, though. Maybe, but I think that might be getting too specific.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#1203: Sep 5th 2015 at 2:45:39 PM

"Big Badass Battle Sequence is not a Badass subtrope either. It's "a very large and very bloody battle". I doubt it's even a trope, but that's a topic for another discussion."

Since it falls under the banner of this thread, I think it can be discussed here, at least a little. I say it is a trope, since it's meant to show a battle on a massive scale.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#1204: Sep 6th 2015 at 8:09:57 AM

Septimus: Well, I've already given my own description. Reposting.

A Badass is a character that is able to handle themselves if a situation comes to a fight and it isn't always easy to tell at a glance who that could be. The grizzled guy with the Perma-Stubble and a gun larger than he is an obvious choice, but sometimes it’s someone who seems harmless at a glance, such as a nerd or even a little girl.

The badass is one of the oldest characters there is being well Older Than Dirt and literally dates back to the oldest known works of fiction. It’s easy to tell an exciting story about a guy that kicks ass and takes name, so such characters often featured prominently in myths and legends. As time has gone on the exact details of how someone can be a badass has evolved, but the fundamental idea has changed little.

As a very high level supertrope, please do not list examples on this page that would fit better on one of the numerous other subtropes.

Basic points:

  1. Badass is a character trope.
  2. Badass is a high level supertrope and thus can't include points that subtropes don't also have.
  3. Badass is about fighting ability.

Personally, I might be okay if we broadened that to be about direct confrontation portrayed similarly to fights ie. cooking duels or whatever, but I don't want to mix that into my definition at the moment for various reasons.

^ It's probably a trope and definitely falls under what this thread is supposed to deal with but we really need to leave that for later.

edited 6th Sep '15 9:28:34 AM by Arha

Rjinswand Since: Apr, 2015
#1205: Sep 6th 2015 at 8:19:32 AM

@1198: I disagree. A couple posts below yours prove that we still get important input and suggestions from various tropers.

I'd prefer to discuss various suggestions on the trope's possible definition, rather than simply stuff them into the crowner.


@1199: A "cool/dramatic coat" could be worn by a Badass, but then again it could be worn by just a cool guy. If there's anything we've established, it's that Badass =/= "cool guy". Thus, "cool/dramatic coat" isn't a Badass subtrope.

Big Badass Battle Sequence isn't defined as a battle between two Badass Armies, though.


@1200: Valid criticism. I guess, my understanding of Badass is less as a character trope, and more as an event trope. I.e., everyone (including cowards or damsels) can be Badass in a dire situation, but not everyone can be Badass 24/7. The problem is, if we were to define someone who's Badass 24/7, what qualities would that character have?

"A Badass should be entirely aware of the fact that they're unstoppable, unbeatable, etc." — I disagree with this, though. E.g. no one would say Batman isn't a Badass. But Batman knows he's not unstoppable or unbeatable. The fact that he knows the risk and still fights crime every night is part of what makes him a Badass.

There might be an interesting dichotomy here, though. E.g. take another certified Badass, Judge Dredd. He's almost a normal human (almost), but he still risks his life every day, and defeats criminals by the dozen. He knows he's not unbeatable. But he acts as if he was. Maybe that's what characterizes a Badass?


@1201: Between your post and the previous one, I now stand corrected on my opinion. Yes, when someone only does something Badass once as an exception, that might not be Badass. Maybe it's a subtrope, though?

So, the updated version of my Badass definition suggestion would be:

  • Character who constantly does something that entails a high risk and is beyond their estimated power level.

@1202: Maybe it could be a subtrope? A non-Badass character acting as a Badass once. I think it could be tropeable, and related to Badass.
@1203: The thing that irks me is the subjectiveness of "massive scale". How big should a battle be to qualify for this trope? Where's the threshold between a regular battle and a Big Badass Battle Sequence?
@1204: My criticisms of this suggestion haven't changed much:
  • Wick usage doesn't support this definition. (Most wicks don't use Badass as "competent fighter", and it's not the most popular use).
  • The Glass Joe problem. (Under this definition, any wimp and coward who can technically fight would be a "Badass").
  • What's the reason to call this trope "Badass" — a word that means something different? Why not just call this trope Fighter? (The amount of wicks can't be the reason, since 90% of those would qualify as misuse under this new definition, anyway)
I'd like to discuss these points before we start voting and stuff.

edited 6th Sep '15 8:35:58 AM by Rjinswand

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#1206: Sep 6th 2015 at 8:54:12 AM

Almost anyone can be a badass in the right circumstances.

If anyone can fit the trope, then it's People Sit On Chairs and doesn't need to be a trope at all.

That might just be the case with Badass. The definition for what constitutes a badass is so loose and so subjective that it ultimately may not merit even being a trope.

Going back to the Works pages, it's hard to clean up Badass tropes because it's hard to explain why they're factually inaccurate, because a Badass isn't a factual concept at all; it really just means, "This person is so great that they filled me with awe." Everyone has a Badass entry or seven because everyone's a Badass to someone.

edited 6th Sep '15 8:56:21 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#1207: Sep 6th 2015 at 9:13:16 AM

^^ Hm? Wick usage supports at the very least that fighting is expected. My wick showed 97%~ usage to involve fighting, as did yours.

Yes, having the trope named Fighter or something would definitely be much easier to work with and spawn less arguments, but unfortunately we're probably stuck with what we have now. Also, 90% of the wicks would be misuse? You mean 3% right? You kind of remind me of that one senator talking about Planned Parenthood.

^ That's not quite what I meant. More like, that little girl could be a badass (Little Miss Badass), that kitten could be a badass (Badass Adorable), that nerd could be a badass (Badass Bookworm) and thus you shouldn't make assumptions about who can or can't handle themselves in a fight.

And yes, of course it's hard to clean up badass. We don't have a proper definition for it, so we're trying to get something we can work with. Honestly, we probably won't handle the cleanup for this for quite some time, if ever, but it's useful to know what Badass actually is.

edited 6th Sep '15 9:16:31 AM by Arha

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#1208: Sep 6th 2015 at 9:26:01 AM

@Rjinswand: We are not going to get agreement on a definition through discussion. Hence, I did propose to throw out all proposals and crowner them.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Rjinswand Since: Apr, 2015
#1209: Sep 6th 2015 at 9:54:31 AM

@1206: It seems you're talking about the word "badass". Yes, that word has a very vague meaning. We're trying to get the trope Badass a clear definition. My suggestion is to do it based on the most common wick usage.

But you have a point, maybe the name itself attracts misuse.


@1207: I'm not sure how
most wick uses are somehow related to fighting
results in
the trope should be defined as "any competent fighter"
Most wick uses have specific, very clear meanings. The specific meaning of "any competent fighter" is present among the wicks, but it's not the most common one. Thus there's no reason to redefine the trope as "any competent fighter" if the wick usage doesn't support that.

but unfortunately we're probably stuck with what we have now.
Why? Why can't we have a trope named Fighter and meaning "any competent fighter"?

Also, 90% of the wicks would be misuse? You mean 3% right?
We have ~50% ZCE which would warrant removal or reevaluation or rewriting, and uses under other meanings that would warrant rewriting to fit the new definition. So "less work" can not be an argument here, since there'll be tons of work regardless of what we choose.

I'm not sure how your political reference is relevant to the discussion.


@1208: We don't need to agree, we need to discuss and poke holes in the available suggestions so that we can find and fix problems in them. We cannot afford to launch a ship that won't sail, so we better make sure we're presenting actually workable suggestions before starting Ye Finale Vote.

edited 6th Sep '15 10:29:38 AM by Rjinswand

Rjinswand Since: Apr, 2015
#1210: Sep 6th 2015 at 10:22:32 AM

Also, added my revised take on the definition to Sandbox/Badass.

The character who does the impossible and takes risks. The Badass.

They can defeat overpowered monsters from space with a thumbtack and chewing gum, defend against an army of trained ninjas with their hands tied, or keep doing their mission despite suffering from pain and hardships that would break anyone else. The point is, they do what's supposed to be impossible for a being of their power level, training, ability and handicap. They go against impossible odds and prevail.

However, the Badass isn't unbeatable or invulnerable. And they know it. And despite that, they continue doing what they do, regardless of the risk. In fact, one cannot be a Badass without risking their health or even their life on an everyday basis.

The important part is that doing a dangerous and almost impossible feat once doesn't yet make someone a Badass. To qualify as a Badass, one needs to do stuff like that all the time.

It should also be noted that a Badass doesn't have to look and act stereotypically macho or "cool". They don't have to wear sunglasses and leather jackets, ride bikes and swear all the time. They might look and act like that, but it's not important. A Badass is a Badass because of what they do, not how they look or act.

edited 6th Sep '15 10:23:23 AM by Rjinswand

DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#1211: Sep 6th 2015 at 12:47:22 PM

"Where's the threshold between a regular battle and a Big Badass Battle Sequence?"

Well I would go with a variation of the difference between a regular film and an Epic Movie. These battles are meant to be outright spectacle, featuring "a cast of thousands" (or at least seem like there are that many), and effort is made to show as much of the full scope as possible (such as how the battle in Final Fantasy VIII has Squall move around just so we can see more of the battle).

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#1212: Sep 6th 2015 at 7:56:54 PM

So I could see Badass being about confrontation, which is usually but not always fighting.
And this is where Badass Pacifist comes in; confrontation without violence. Conflict without punches.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#1213: Sep 6th 2015 at 8:45:00 PM

Not sure if a confrontation is needed though for certain actions to come across as badass in a story.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Rjinswand Since: Apr, 2015
#1214: Sep 8th 2015 at 3:24:22 AM

We would need to first determine what Badass Pacifist means.

As of now, its description is a patchwork of meanings, including:

  • Non-violent character who is "awesome" note .
  • Non-violent character who commands respect.
  • Non-violent character who can take a beating but will still stand strong to his ideals.
  • Character who defeats enemies without using violence.
  • Non-violent gymnast who can evade all enemies' attacks.

The example section is even less consistent.

edited 8th Sep '15 3:25:34 AM by Rjinswand

DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#1215: Sep 8th 2015 at 5:08:22 AM

So instead of characters who do improbably impressive actions, "badass" is basically Gushing About Characters You Like?

Yeah let's gather up options for the crowner.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Rjinswand Since: Apr, 2015
#1216: Sep 8th 2015 at 12:35:10 PM

[up]Yeah, there's a lot of misuse.

What do you think about my definition suggestion at @1210?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#1217: Sep 8th 2015 at 1:09:35 PM

More misuse than actual use, in my opinion.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#1218: Sep 8th 2015 at 3:12:04 PM

[up][up]I still think "badass" should be made into a fan speak term, and any solid definitions should be made their own tropes, with names that properly indicate them.

That's at least what I would put on the crowner.

edited 8th Sep '15 3:12:19 PM by DragonQuestZ

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
lakingsif Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
#1219: Sep 8th 2015 at 3:24:11 PM

- where is the crowner?

OH MY GOD; MY PARENTS ARE GARDENIIIIINNNNGGGGG!!!!!
ChaoticNovelist Since: Jun, 2010
#1220: Sep 8th 2015 at 4:07:36 PM

About the sandbox, I had to remove references to "doing the impossible" because that is the definition of Beyond the Impossible, which is not, regardless of the trope nme's origin, related to badass. I put a lot of work into cleaning that trope up. "more misuse than actual use" is something I can relate to.

Other than that, it looks good. It could certainly be better but it could also be worse. Making clear that being "badass" is different from being "cool" or "manly" is a great place to start.

Rjinswand Since: Apr, 2015
#1221: Sep 9th 2015 at 2:27:04 AM

[up] Fair point.

I edited my description a bit as well, to make it sound more "badass" and less "badbutt" grin See if it's better now.


So alright, if we were to make a crowner. What options would be present there?

  • Keep the definition of Badass as "Character who does improbable stunts, Rule of Cool personified". YKTTW all other meanings.
  • Redefine Badass as "Any competent warrior". Sandbox: link (first definition). YKTTW all other meanings.
  • Redefine Badass as "One of the most competent warriors in a given setting". YKTTW all other meanings.
  • Redefine Badass as "Character who is very powerful, almost overpowered". YKTTW all other meanings.
  • Redefine Badass as "Character who takes risks and succeeds against all odds". Sandbox: link (second definition). YKTTW all other meanings.
  • Redefine Badass as "Character who's very brave, who got huge balls". YKTTW all other meanings.
  • Redefine Badass as "Character who stays strong despite pain and hazards, is tough and resilient and got strong willpower". YKTTW all other meanings.
  • Redefine Badass as "Character who is formidable: inspiring awe and respect in allies, and fear in enemies". YKTTW all other meanings.
  • Turn Badass into an example-less Fan Speak page. YKTTW all other meanings.
  • Cut Badass, or turn it into a disambig.

Any other options I missed? Or corrections?

edited 9th Sep '15 2:29:24 AM by Rjinswand

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#1222: Sep 9th 2015 at 2:46:30 AM

A few procedural points:

  • "YKTTW all other meanings" should not be a part of the crowner vote. I've seen that such "options" tend to bog down discussions. Something like "Optionally, one may YKTTW other definitions. Their fate shall be decided in YKTTW".
  • "X or Y" options are a bad thing. One option per outcome, please.
  • Is "exampleless Fan Speak page" the same thing as the "like Mary Sue" option I advanced in the discussion? To whit, write up a page containing all the possible meanings and facets of the word "badass" in the context of storytelling.
  • The crowner will need a "This is about the main Badass page. Pages with "badass" in the title are out of scope of this vote." header.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Rjinswand Since: Apr, 2015
#1223: Sep 9th 2015 at 3:18:22 AM

[up]Points taken. Here's Crowner Draft v2.0:


What to do with Badass?

Note 1: This is about the main Badass page. Pages with "badass" in the title are out of scope of this vote.

Note 2: Regardless of the vote result, all other definitions won't be lost to the sands of time — they may be optionally YKTTW'd, and their fate shall be decided in YKTTW.

  • Keep the definition of Badass as "Character who does improbable stunts, Rule of Cool personified".
  • Redefine Badass as "Any competent warrior; from the best fighter in universe to just any trained fighter". Sandbox: link (first definition).
  • Redefine Badass as "One of the best and most competent warriors in a given setting".
  • Redefine Badass as "Character who is very powerful, almost overpowered".
  • Redefine Badass as "Character who constantly takes risks and prevails against unlikely odds". Sandbox: link (second definition).
  • Redefine Badass as "Character who's very brave, who got huge balls".
  • Redefine Badass as "Character who's tough and resilient, who stays strong despite pain and hazards due to strong willpower".
  • Redefine Badass as "Character who is formidable: inspiring awe and respect in allies, and fear in enemies".
  • Turn Badass into an example-less Fan Speak page, explaining the most common uses of the word (a la what's done to Mary Sue).
  • Turn Badass into a disambig.
  • Cut Badass entirely.

edited 9th Sep '15 3:30:26 AM by Rjinswand

ChaoticNovelist Since: Jun, 2010
#1224: Sep 10th 2015 at 1:27:18 PM

I say there should be a combination option. "Brave enough to face danger and strong/skilled/tough enough to handle it".

Rjinswand Since: Apr, 2015
#1225: Sep 10th 2015 at 1:32:56 PM

[up]So, it's pretty much "Any competent fighter who isn't a coward", right?

edited 10th Sep '15 1:33:32 PM by Rjinswand


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