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Alright, so in TRS Badass Gay came up for discussion and it was agreed that there appears to big problem with the Badass X tropes in general, which needs to be sorted out until something can be ruled on for Badass Gay.

Here's a courtesy link: TRS page. And Badass page with its subtropes.

Noted Problems include:

  • Tropes are just listings of characters people thing are badass who happen to have a certain trait. (The Badass + Trait Problem)
  • Badass X as a naming scheme is actually very vague and doesn't give a lot of insight into what the character trope actually is, assuming it is a trope.
  • Badass X as a naming scheme proliferates the use of Badass + Trait 'tropes'.

Suggested things to do include:

  • Make it a requirement that a badass character trope means a character is "badass because of a trait", or "badass in spite of a trait".
  • Renaming away from the Badass X naming scheme as much as possible.
  • Cut, redefine or re-purpose things that are just Badass + trait.

There are also a lot of tropes that seem to be valid character-types, but have the naming scheme 'Badass X', when there's more to the trope than that. There are also a lot of prop or event or whatever tropes that need to be gone through as well.

edited 3rd Feb '13 1:06:28 AM by lu127

NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Jan 6th 2012 at 5:35:24 PM

Alright, so in TRS Badass Gay came up for discussion and it was agreed that there appears to big problem with the Badass X tropes in general, which needs to be sorted out until something can be ruled on for Badass Gay.

Here's a courtesy link: TRS page. And Badass page with its subtropes.

Noted Problems include:

  • Tropes are just listings of characters people thing are badass who happen to have a certain trait. (The Badass + Trait Problem)
  • Badass X as a naming scheme is actually very vague and doesn't give a lot of insight into what the character trope actually is, assuming it is a trope.
  • Badass X as a naming scheme proliferates the use of Badass + Trait 'tropes'.

Suggested things to do include:

  • Make it a requirement that a badass character trope means a character is "badass because of a trait", or "badass in spite of a trait".
  • Renaming away from the Badass X naming scheme as much as possible.
  • Cut, redefine or re-purpose things that are just Badass + trait.

There are also a lot of tropes that seem to be valid character-types, but have the naming scheme 'Badass X', when there's more to the trope than that. There are also a lot of prop or event or whatever tropes that need to be gone through as well.

edited 3rd Feb '13 1:06:28 AM by lu127

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Jan 6th 2012 at 5:52:09 PM

I agree with all four points for what we need to do.

Examples:

  1. The Badass Normal is badass because he is a normal in a setting full of supers. Badass Adorable is badass despite looking harmless due to being cute. Note: I think it may need a rename anyway, but for the purpose of this project I'll put that aside.
  2. Badass Spaniard is a legitimate trope, but it does not really need to be part of the badass snowclone family since it appears to vary in spirit and encourages more snowclones.
  3. Badass Gay is probably not a real trope as written rather than a combination of two tropes that don't really do anything together. The stereotype subversion of a badass camp character is already covered by Agent Peacock, leaving little relevance in the character in Badass Gay actually being gay.
  4. A Badass Longcloak is awesome and a nice visual signal to pay attention, but it's not a person. A badass is a person, not a thing

shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Jan 6th 2012 at 6:15:24 PM

[up] Camp and gay are not the same thing. Most Camp characters are not gay. Most gay characters are not Camp. That there is an overlap between them does not mean that the two tropes cover the same material.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Jan 6th 2012 at 6:18:03 PM

Suggestions on Arha's examples:

  1. Badass Normal seems to be doing all right, and is being correctly used as "Non-superpowered character is badass, in a Weak, but Skilled way." Its main problem is people using it for works without supers. Either way, it bears a little looking into just to be safe.
  2. I have a weird desire to rename Badass Spaniard to whatever "The Badass" is in Spanish (google translate suggests el rudo). Failing that, I think we'd have to go to a character name, which I'm sure no one wants.
  3. Other people have said better about Badass Gay; I'll leave it alone.
  4. Stuff like Badass Longcoat and Badass Moustache can probably be easily made more obvious by turning them into Longcoat Of Badass and Moustache Of Badass.

edited 6th Jan '12 6:18:41 PM by Discar

NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Jan 6th 2012 at 6:29:38 PM

The thing is we pretty much need to go through the whole list and see which are working and which aren't individually. Basically like what happened with Anime Tropes.

edited 6th Jan '12 6:31:10 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Jan 6th 2012 at 6:35:48 PM

I'd volunteer to participate in this.

Jimmmyman10 cannot into space from polan Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
cannot into space
Jan 6th 2012 at 7:03:46 PM

I would argue that some of them aren't even tropes. For Example, Badass Biker, no kidding. Also, Badass Furry, if it isn't covered by Badass Adorable, its just a more specific of Badass.

Go play Kentucky Route Zero. Now.
NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Jan 6th 2012 at 7:09:30 PM

[up]Exactly, it's just badass + trait, which isn't a trope. Some of them are like that, and need to be cut.

edited 6th Jan '12 7:09:48 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Jan 6th 2012 at 8:10:01 PM

Badass Furry. That's it, that was the one I specifically wanted to cite as one that was not a trope.

And shimaspawn, I'm aware that not all gay people are camp, or even that many or however you want to say it. My point was that unless they are really, obviously gay in a stereotypical way ie. camp, the reader/viewer is unlikely to have the intended 'Wow, I didn't expect this guy to be awesome' reaction. Some tough, hard grizzled action hero who happens to be gay is exactly that: He happens to be gay. What does the gayness have to do with it?

shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Jan 6th 2012 at 8:30:15 PM

It has a lot to do with it. Even when gay characters aren't camp they're typically treated as weaker and less aggressive than straight men. They don't tend to be the badass characters. They tend to get killed off at the first sign of conflict.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Jan 6th 2012 at 8:52:11 PM

Lets just start at the top and sort everything into categories, like "keep as is", "fix", "possible cut", instead of focusing on one trope.

edited 6th Jan '12 8:52:28 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Jan 6th 2012 at 8:53:16 PM

Should I just go ahead and start this off, or do we need to make a sandbox or something first?

shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Jan 6th 2012 at 8:56:11 PM

Let's make a sandbox to sort them. Sandbox.Badass Tropes sounds like a good place.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Jan 6th 2012 at 9:46:38 PM

I went ahead and created a page - I don't know much about sandboxing, so I just added in the three categories discussed so far.

By the way, it's worth noting that not all of the subtropes of Badass are actually tropes of the "Badass X" snowclone family. Should we just ignore those?

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
Jan 6th 2012 at 10:31:44 PM

Wouldn't a non camp gay badass would just be a Straight Gay badass?

I can do the sweeping thing as well if you like. For those of you have never done this with me before: I'm going to list a group of tropes, and we discuss them (the only reason for the group is so that we get this done faster). Once we decide what needs to be done, I, or someone who is doing the job, can move the trope. Sound good?

Tropes to discuss:

And before anyone else asks, I don't do the "subtropes under super trope" organization style, I sort purely alphabetically.

Fight smart, not fair.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Jan 6th 2012 at 10:40:18 PM

Badass Gay is a notable subversion to the typical stereotype that gays be they Straight Gay, Camp Gay, Manly Gay or anything in between are pushovers and tend to just end up getting beaten up and dying rather than making a good showing in a fight in most works.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Jan 6th 2012 at 10:41:24 PM

[up][up]No we need to at least look at them. They can be Badass + Trait without actually having a Badass X name.

[up]Those all look fine to me, I vote keep.

edited 6th Jan '12 10:42:25 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
Jan 6th 2012 at 10:42:25 PM

Shouldn't that be handled over in the Badass Gay TRS rather than here?

Fight smart, not fair.
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Jan 6th 2012 at 10:45:01 PM

I vote Keep on Action Girl and all its variants. They look good to me.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Jan 6th 2012 at 10:45:18 PM

We closed it because it was a mess of all the badass tropes being discussed and we decided to evaluate them all in one place. It's a bit like we did the anime thread.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Jan 6th 2012 at 10:45:25 PM

Badass Gay is being put off until we sort out the general state of the Badass X tropes as a whole, at which point we will Cut what needs cut, TRS what needs TR Sd (like Badass Gay), and we can make small changes here. Though I suppose renames and redefines might have to be run through TRS trope by trope.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
Jan 6th 2012 at 11:03:19 PM

If you want, I can move Badass Gay right into "needs TRS".

Also, should we break off the subtypes into stuff like Badass In Contrast Index or something?

edited 6th Jan '12 11:04:05 PM by Deboss

Fight smart, not fair.
NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Jan 6th 2012 at 11:11:54 PM

Might as well, since we know that one already.

I think the Badass page works fine as one index, though a soft split would be good.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
Jan 7th 2012 at 12:50:13 AM

Okay, I've got a pair of votes, mine and Noirs on the first five, all for keep(contrast).

Fight smart, not fair.
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Jan 7th 2012 at 1:00:41 AM

I also voted for keep - I don't think it's particularly significant which reason makes them valid tropes.


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