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"There's no creativity/originality left."

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Solstace Hexachordal Combinatorial from the Second Viennese School Since: Dec, 1969
Hexachordal Combinatorial
#51: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:07:55 AM

Even if individual tastes can make works subjective, they still rely on design principles to give them a sense of quality to more than a select few. Sure, emotional things can be subjective, but things like glaring plot holes or poor technique are not.

And that's one of the ways of perceiving artistic merit. The ability of a piece to be appreciated by an audience with little to no background in the medium. And this is what that one group of academics is talking about when they say merit is just psychology applied to aesthetic value. It's easy to see where colors clash, and how strokes flow. Similarly, it's easy to know a well written narrative when you see one.

The main problem for this approach to merit, is that it ignores the artists' input, the reactions they intend to elicit from the audience. Take for example, the Dadaists, who were rather split as to their goals, but mostly wanted to overturn the design principles that you speak of.

Some wanted to overturn the principles to show that quality can be protrayed without them. Others wanted to get rid of the principles and create something utterly repulsive.

In fact, you see this in almost every medium. Traditional musical form began to fall out of fashion in the late Romantic and early Impressionist period, and the rules of harmony with it. By the twentieth century, Charles Ives and Schoenberg were writing music to break as many of the conventional rules as possible. John Cage went beyond that, creating recordings "organized noise".

You can argue that the design principles are still in play, because they have to be purposely avoided, but that nulls the part of your statement about quality apparent to more than a select few.

At the base of the art world, you have to prove that you have technical prowess before getting into any of the subjective stuff. At least, 90% of the time, anyway. You'd have to be a really lucky or a really rich bastard to slip through the cracks without that foundation.

And this falls into the hole of merit by commercial success. And that's pretty much bullshit. Most of what we consider the defining and influential works from a period were not what was popular during said period.

And then the bit about technical prowess. I'll agree with you, for the most part, because I can't think of an influential artist that doesn't have technical ability in some area, even it it's not the area they're remembered for.

Ecstasy is Sustained Intensity
Solstace Hexachordal Combinatorial from the Second Viennese School Since: Dec, 1969
Hexachordal Combinatorial
#52: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:18:48 AM

Then explain the purpose of classes and schools dedicated to teaching any artistic craft over a long period of time.

I think what Juan meant is that art is reactionary. So, simple answer: schooling and classes exist so that the artist knows what he's reacting to.

This leans more towards the "What is the artists intent" kind of merit, though. And is much more academic.

The classes also exist to give an artist the technical skills to create something that pretty.

The two can overlap, or they can go completely different directions.

edited 2nd Jan '12 7:22:05 AM by Solstace

Ecstasy is Sustained Intensity
Vorpy Unstoppable Sex Goddess from from from from from from from from from Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Two-timing
Unstoppable Sex Goddess
#53: Jan 5th 2012 at 10:38:04 PM

What the hell is an anchorplasm?

Challenge considered.

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0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#54: Jan 6th 2012 at 5:33:28 AM

[up]What the hell is a jigawatt?!??

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
djmaca Secret Character from Philippines Since: Apr, 2010
Secret Character
#55: Jan 6th 2012 at 6:37:33 AM

You want originality?

Create your own world! Try remaking the world to your own image.

...a little brother should belong to his older sister, right? - Orimura Chifuyu
0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#56: Jan 6th 2012 at 7:52:03 AM

[up]Thus, movie/TV villains are creative.

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#57: Jan 6th 2012 at 8:03:54 AM

Not all the people who try to remake the world for themselves are villains.

Granted, most of them are not heroes, so.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
PinkamenaDianePie Stabby Stabby Party Pony from Sugarcube Corner Since: Dec, 2011
Stabby Stabby Party Pony
#58: Jan 6th 2012 at 8:28:57 AM

I try to be creative. Sewing, baking....

sorts of things nopony has done before.

edited 6th Jan '12 8:29:50 AM by PinkamenaDianePie

Newfable Since: Feb, 2011
#59: Jan 6th 2012 at 9:36:37 AM

A lot of people that think originality is dead believe that the words "originality" and "greatness" mean the same thing.

They're generally silly people.

Vorpy Unstoppable Sex Goddess from from from from from from from from from Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Two-timing
Unstoppable Sex Goddess
#60: Jan 6th 2012 at 9:38:04 AM

Riddle me this:

A girl with blue hair that rides a Shark. She is a Galeomancer.

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Vorpy Unstoppable Sex Goddess from from from from from from from from from Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Two-timing
Unstoppable Sex Goddess
#62: Jan 6th 2012 at 10:17:25 AM

Wassitcalled?

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Newfable Since: Feb, 2011
#63: Jan 6th 2012 at 11:03:10 AM

Don't know. But someone, somewhere in Japan, someone is telling their colleges, "Guys, listen to this: A girl with blue hair that rides a Shark. She is a Galeomancer. What do you think?"

A quiet, tense moment. Followed by:

"Genius."

DarkConfidant Since: Aug, 2011
#64: Jan 6th 2012 at 12:11:01 PM

There's plenty of creativity and originality left.

The amount of creativity and originality that can be legally produced and distributed, due to ever-expansive copyright and IP laws, on the other hand, is a finite quantity that is at risk of running out in the near future.

juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#65: Jan 6th 2012 at 12:16:01 PM

Nothing is new under the sun, blah blah blah

with that, said presenting old things under a new perspective is quite possible and reasonable. We all do it every day, most of the time.

Besides, chances are, there's someone out there, right now, writing Red Riding Hood as a space opera, man

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
HansOnTheKeyboard Since: Dec, 1969
#66: Apr 28th 2012 at 11:15:07 PM

[up][up][up][up] He might be talking about Aqua Knight, where title comes from simple fact that the main character rides an orca whale. Orcas are not sharks and the main character does not have blue hair, but in a series like that, I'd be surprised if there isn't a Blue Oni to her Red Oni who rides a shark for extra contrast.

[up] Red Riding Hood does not sound like a very good idea for a space opera, because you'd think it would be about a little girl space-walking to her grandmother's with a basket of goodies when she meets an alien shape-shifter. It seems so contrived, especially when the woodcutter comes in with a laser ax. However, "Little Red Riding Hood" is actually the name of the space ship.

The space ship is a firefly class, and it seemed like a simple job: pick up the cargo and smuggle it to a nearby space port. Their contact is a crooked port authority who uses the handle of "Grandma." "Just tell her you've got a 'basket of goodies,' she'll know what to do." However, their old friends from the pirate ship "Star Wolf" also have their eyes on the cargo. They ambush the ship in the asteroid field between the outer colonies (where it is easy to get goodies of a questionable nature) to the sunny side of the solar system (where the money is). The captain knows they can't outrun them, so he hails the vessel hoping he can outsmart them again.

The Starwolf computers take this as an opportunity to download a copy of the fake I.D. the ship is transmitting. All ships are equipped with transmitters to prevent things like what the pirates are about to do. At the speed interstellar ships travel, authorities have to identify them early if they want to have a shot at stopping an enemy attack. This isn't hard to see ships when they're lit up like a bottle rocket in the vacuum of space, but seeing isn't the same thing as recognizing and so they don't shoot friendly ships full of Companions and other precious cargo, the port authorities receive transmissions of what ships they can expect well in advance.

Along comes Little Red Riding Hood, pleasantly ahead of schedule. It zips in at close to the speed of light and BAM! Space Pirate attack smack dab in Grandma's neck of the woods. The primary guns are take out in second and then the Star Wolf swoops into the dock and sends out troops to storm the space station. By the time the real Little Red Riding Hood, the captain of the Star Wolf has complete control of the station. Little Red Riding Hood brings in its smuggled cargo nice and easy for the pirates.

"Grandma" has big eyes, certainly bigger than their stomach as they eye the cargo they are supposed to either collect for their employer or split with the whole crew. Instead, they call in their largest and loyalest, and thus most heavily armed buddies. "What large teeth you have."

"All the better to shoot you with!"

However, the Little Red Riding Hood was originally a smuggling vessel, and just because there was no need to hide the cargo from the port authorities this time was no reason for those secret compartments to go to waste. Jayne pops out of the floor with a laser ax (you didn't think I was going to just give up on that idea, did you?) cuts off the pirates at the ankles and shouts "TIMBER!!!" The rest of the crew comes in with their teeth out, so the space pirates do the smart thing and try to parley.

The captain of the Star Wolf calls members of his crew into the Little Red Riding Hood, where they are captured and checked for valuables including the possibility of turning them in for a bounty. Meanwhile, Grandma is found safe and sound. She thanks them for their service "and together they share the basket of goodies and they all live happily ever after the end."

That said, I do find it hard to be creative/original. The above story was basically a Firefly fanfic where I changed a few details. My original project follows a group of science refugees who have to try to survive on the fringes of a society that hates and fears them after their laboratory burns down. It's so original that I have trouble thinking of what to do next, and I keep coming up with ideas that don't fit the original idea. The setting keeps demanding that the characters fight or steal to survive, but the "heroes" of the story are clumsy wimps who want to do the right thing. It isn't that it is hard for them to avoid trouble, it's just hard to make the book interesting without some sort of trouble. I'm actually considering some sort of Hortatio Alger reward, where the characters find out that a person they helped for no reason actually has the power to make them very rich, but that seems kind of like a cheap trick. It's awesome wish fulfillment, but I might as well make money fall from the sky and solve everyone's problems the way it is written now. There might be a point where there characters have suffered enough and it is okay to give them something like this, but I don't exactly have the formula in front of me. So I do what most creative people do, hiding my original ideas until they are good enough for people who like to complain about everything.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#68: Apr 28th 2012 at 11:21:11 PM

You know what? I think there has been.

0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#69: Apr 29th 2012 at 12:42:10 AM

What about a musical? Specifically, a rock musical?

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
UmLovely The Darkness Grows from 2814 Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
The Darkness Grows
#70: Apr 29th 2012 at 12:50:06 AM

[up][up][up] Not a novel that I know of, but a show? Yes.

RISE
0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#71: Apr 29th 2012 at 4:56:43 AM

Come to think of it, wasn't that Red Riding Hood movie (or whatever it was called, the one that tried to be a Twilight ripoff) pretty much Little Red Riding Hood with werewolves?

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
Exelixi Lesbarian from Alchemist's workshop Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Lesbarian
#72: Apr 29th 2012 at 6:13:55 AM

[up]Two things:

1. LRRH was originally about werewolves. Grandma wasn't eaten by the wolf, she was the wolf, and there was no happy ending; the Huntsman carved that bitch up like a Christmas ham and took a traumatized Red back home.

2. That movie doesn't really count. It's certainly playing off the fairy tale, but it ends up being drastically different. It was also surprisingly decent, though the female lead's acting was mediocre.

edited 29th Apr '12 6:14:38 AM by Exelixi

Mura: -flips the bird to veterinary science with one hand and Euclidean geometry with the other-
SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#73: Apr 29th 2012 at 10:17:36 AM

@title: I think that sentence is made up by people who love to pretend that their time/generation/whatever was/is somehow superior to younger one, since that usually does come with "Back in my days everything was better" :P

Ryusui Since: Jan, 2001
#74: May 2nd 2012 at 11:36:38 AM

I think being "creative" and "original" isn't as important as simply not having pretensions of "creativity" or "originality." I wasn't shooting for either when I made Corebound, my Ludum Dare #23 Game Jam entry, but I ended up making something that was both - at least, that's what people tell me. ^_^; Yet if you take it apart, there's really nothing there that hasn't been done before - platforming, gravity switching, the surprise final boss, etc.

I guess the two lessons to take are "execution wins out in the end" and "no one likes a braggart" - certainly Molyneux wouldn't be such a laughingstock if he'd set out to make Fable a solid RPG instead of crowing all through the development process how he was going to make Real Life: The Game. Even if the end result had been exactly what we got, they wouldn't have gotten taken apart like they did.

Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#75: May 2nd 2012 at 11:53:57 AM

In Once Upon a Time, Red Riding Hood is a werewolf, to give a recent use of that version.

A brighter future for a darker age.

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