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Holocaust: can it happen again?

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I just watched a documentary about nazi death camps, and i was genuinely frightened and nearly to cry at the testimonies and the reveal that if about 7000 german officers worked only in Auschwitz-Bikernau,they just looked like everyone else and were in most case perfectly average german citizens and loving parents without a trace of cruelty on their daily lives (out of the massacre stuff). Could people nowadays being induced into a similar rampage of death and cruelty? are we just learned the lesson? Was Rousseau Right or Humans are bastards?

edited 1st Jan '12 12:18:32 PM by MrsRatched

Flyboy Decemberist from the United States Since: Dec, 2011
Decemberist
#101: Jan 1st 2012 at 9:26:53 PM

I don't read Rand. There's no reason to insult me.

Hey, I have a copy of The Fountainhead next to me, and besides being stupidly long and morally reprehensible it makes for excellent entertainment value. It just happens that it's not entertaining for the reasons Rand might have expected it to be entertaining for. evil grin

In any case, I've heard 20 million before for Stalin, but it was mostly from famine in the Ukraine, not from the political purges. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."
tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#102: Jan 1st 2012 at 9:33:05 PM

Well, a good number of the deaths attributed to Stalin's regime were due to famine, individual killings and forced disappearances by the government, rather than an organized campaign of mass murder. The Great Purge, though, was explicitly known as an attempt to wipe out any spies, "wreckers", and personal enemies of Stalin, which wasn't different in nature from what had gone on before and since, except that there was now a greater focus on doing so.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#103: Jan 1st 2012 at 9:34:56 PM

Gwirion:Um no it doesn't. Do you know what the Great Purge even was? It refers to a specific period in March 1936 to Januray 1939. Which is the period when Stalin came in to power and used the purges to solidfy his power.

And the estimates for the total casualty count under Stalin range from as low as 8 million to as high as 61million and is widely contested by various scholars. That is a pretty wildly varying body count. Honestly 61 million range sounds like quite a bit of exagerration.

The holocaust counting all victims was 11 million people. This includes Jews, Soviet POWS, Romani, Homosexuals, and Political Prisoners.

edited 1st Jan '12 9:35:40 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
stripesthezebra Since: Dec, 2011
#104: Jan 1st 2012 at 9:37:06 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin#Calculating_the_number_of_victims

For those interested.

[up]

Actually, it goes as low as 3 million. Also, the Holocaust was really more like 11-17 million.

edited 1st Jan '12 9:38:39 PM by stripesthezebra

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#105: Jan 1st 2012 at 9:43:36 PM

Hmm that low eh. Still the point is that is quite a wide margin of difference. The majority of it was not a process like the Holocaust. The Holocaust bears the unique and dubious honour of being horrifically effecient and organized.

Who watches the watchmen?
stripesthezebra Since: Dec, 2011
#106: Jan 1st 2012 at 9:49:51 PM

[up]

A genocide doesn't really have to be organized, it can just be mobs ripping dudes up limb from limb, but you're right, the Holocaust was unusually efficient.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#107: Jan 2nd 2012 at 12:57:49 AM

Agreed it doesn't have to be organized but there is something disturbingly insidious when they are.

Who watches the watchmen?
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#108: Jan 2nd 2012 at 1:25:09 AM

Sure, but that's more an aesthetic than an ethic question.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
MrsRatched Judging you from Nowhere Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Judging you
#109: Jan 2nd 2012 at 2:59:13 AM

Well, the point where i opened this thread, apart from what i've explained in my first post, it's just cause i found extremely frightening having met a few people who claimed homosexuals and immigrants had to "disappear" or "being erradicated", most of these people comes to the right wing or the religious communities of the country where i live and claim to "reject" passionately nazism and fascism, and take a very great offense if being called so (more a Nazi than a Fascist, as Fascist is a common left-wing insult and have been derailed to the point a few conservatives even feel proud of been called that, isn't it terrible?) but the fact there are so-called democrats that have the guts of saying you to the face that you should "dissapear" really freaked me out. I don't want to be "disappeared", obviously, it's just...the happily way genocide and massacre it's invoked nowadays in western societies more than the fact i'm a target population what i find more disturbing, in fact. I think western democracies are in serious danger nowadays, not just because and obvious threat islamic religious fundamentalism (and don't get me wrong, it's not a racist statement, just talking about a political derailment of what it is the islamic civilization) but because a serious enemy within...Nowadays, in times of crisis, there are voices that claims democracy have failed, or is soft, or people is being derailed...Fred Phelps, or Jean Marie Le Pen, or, YMMV, Sarah Palin, you know...

Haw Haw Haw
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#110: Jan 2nd 2012 at 2:59:16 AM

Fair enough point.

Who watches the watchmen?
betaalpha betaalpha from England Since: Jan, 2001
betaalpha
#111: Jan 2nd 2012 at 3:51:49 AM

It's a fair worry, though I think the human race is getting better thn ever at avoiding such things. All those people you mentioned are well known whackjobs of various levels, and they're known as whackjobs precisely because of these daft, extremist views (as you say, YMMV with Palin, I know and care little about her).

I think it's interesting that tropes like Always Chaotic Evil feels ever more ridiculous and unrealistic. It used to be permissable to demonize, butcher and enslave Africans - now even vampires, klingons, goombas and (amazingly) darleks are sometimes portrayed sympathetically and heroes won't just blow up whole planets full of them without doing a lot of angsting first.

TheGloomer Since: Sep, 2010
#112: Jan 2nd 2012 at 4:04:00 AM

Genocide does happen, but nobody wants to call it genocide. As far as I know, the 1948 Convention on Genocide imposes an obligation on its signatories to intervene in order to prevent the crime of genocide (defined in Article 2) from being committed. The problem is that nobody wants to commit to doing this, because it's seldom judged to be in the national interest, so nobody recognises genocide when it's happening.

edited 2nd Jan '12 9:00:00 AM by TheGloomer

stripesthezebra Since: Dec, 2011
#113: Jan 2nd 2012 at 8:54:48 AM

@Ms Ratched

What country do you live in exactly? Somewhere in Europe?

"obvious threat islamic religious fundamentalism "

Like I said earlier, Muslim fundamentalists are hardly the greatest threat to European nations and the US. In fact they're barely on the radar. Some politicians (like the guy I mentioned, Geert Wilders, or Le Pen) just pretend they are to get the more ignorant people all riled up in bigoted self rightousness.

edited 2nd Jan '12 8:55:35 AM by stripesthezebra

MrsRatched Judging you from Nowhere Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Judging you
#114: Jan 2nd 2012 at 9:03:04 AM

[up]I live in Spain. And fundamentalism is a threat IMO, but not in the same way as le Pen could say, as i don't think of every individual as a suspect. It's worth to say that every muslim enemy is the fundamentalist, who hides upon the normal people and plays with the fact that we can't identify them. If an Holocaust against muslim people would be started, we would be criminally guilty, but the fundamentalist ones would have sell their own people for their ideas. Fundamentalists are spreading hate towards his own race, and most muslims suffers it in a way or another. Fundamentalism is a threat on liberty because their own existence have had western democracies to retool themselves upon control and authoritarism, without even have been invaded. People will choose a dictator if the think they can protect their children and their own lives from a random bombing, and that's the tragedy. We live today in a crisis world, full of fear and hysteria, our democracies seems weakened and inefficient against the markets and the enemies who wants to harm us and people don't trust anymore their governments. A little bit of chaos and a Magnificent Bastard could turn up the ballance surprisingly fast into a full Crapsack World

edited 2nd Jan '12 9:04:35 AM by MrsRatched

Haw Haw Haw
stripesthezebra Since: Dec, 2011
#115: Jan 2nd 2012 at 9:24:55 AM

[up]

No. Your presumtions about muslims are simply untrue. There many, many, if not the vast majority, of muslims who oppose both western nations and theocracies. I'm not muslim, but I definitely do. One can very easily be an alleged "enemy" and not be a fundamentalist. If muslims oppose the EU and the US, chances ae good that it isn't because they're fundamentalists, but because those nations do a lot of damage to innocent people for no good reason.

Genocide is never an appropriate response, especially not to the comparatively inneffectual terrorist attacks muslim fundamentalists have committed. Like I said, fundamentalists simply aren't that dangerous. If Europeans genocide muslims, Europeans only have themselves to blame.

Also, for fuck's sake, muslims aren't a race.

Flyboy Decemberist from the United States Since: Dec, 2011
Decemberist
#116: Jan 2nd 2012 at 9:28:23 AM

Some of it might be wording. When somebody says "I oppose the United States and the European Unions" as stripes just did, I think "lol ignore." When somebody says "I oppose certain policies of [whatever nation]," then they can be taken seriously.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."
MrsRatched Judging you from Nowhere Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Judging you
#117: Jan 2nd 2012 at 9:30:59 AM

M Mh...I don't have such a negative perception of Western Countries, in fact, they have more to win being assimilated by the Western way of life than being in the line of the stubborn islamic dogma. Also, did i said Race? sorry, i just wanted to use a category...

As opposed to Angela Merkel, i believe in the possibility of a western multicultural democracy, the US is more or less an example that it is possible, but in the case of Islamic Population, is most of a hard values dissonance suddenly accept homosexuality and women's emancipation...and this is the problem, but Occident should not cede two centuries of History to seek pace...And i know it sounds bellicist and contrary to what i'm tryin to say, but, just think about it, t3hat's the freakin dilemma

Haw Haw Haw
stripesthezebra Since: Dec, 2011
#118: Jan 2nd 2012 at 9:45:06 AM

[up]

Opposing the actions/policies of western nations does not equal supporting "stubborn Islamic dogma" any more than opposing Iran means you're a christian fundamentalist. For the record, there are plenty of western, Christian politicians who would like to ban things like gay marriage and abortion.

edited 2nd Jan '12 9:47:33 AM by stripesthezebra

SavageHeathen Pro-Freedom Fanatic from Somewhere Since: Feb, 2011
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
#119: Jan 2nd 2012 at 10:47:12 AM

@Thread Hop: A Holocaust, specifically? Not to the Jews: They've got Peace Through Superior Firepower going.

As for genocide, it's not that it can happen again, it has happened and it keeps happening. Genocide didn't magically disappear when the Nazis were defeated: The Khmer Rouge managed to kill off a quarter of their own population in 4 years, making it the largest self-inflicted genocide in history. The Rwandan Hutus killed off ~800K Tutsi during 90 days in The '90s, while the Tutsi returned the favor in Burundi. The Balkan peoples spent a few years ethnically cleansing each other since the fall of the Yugoslav commies. The right-wing Junta in Guatemala tried to wipe out the Maya, killing ~300K during The '80s. The Brits killed a few hundred thousand Kikuyu before butting out of Kenya before decolonization.... It keeps going on and on.

edited 2nd Jan '12 10:49:39 AM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
stripesthezebra Since: Dec, 2011
#120: Jan 2nd 2012 at 11:00:38 AM

[up]

I think that by Holocaust they just meant really, really big genocide. Like, 11million<.

[down]

That too.

edited 2nd Jan '12 11:03:13 AM by stripesthezebra

tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#121: Jan 2nd 2012 at 11:01:24 AM

I thought the question was referring to the modern Western world...

silver2195 Since: Jan, 2001
#122: Jan 2nd 2012 at 12:11:06 PM

This thread is terrible, but I'll try to bring some sanity back to it.

Not only can the Holocaust happen again, but it already has. Repeatedly. Not in Western Europe, but that's not much progress. (For the record, I don't anticipate a genocide occurring in the US or Western Europe in the foreseeable future.) The arguments about scale strike me as bizarre; Pol Pot's actions resulted in the death of 21% of the population under his control, and he was stopped only because he picked a fight with the government of Vietnam.

Currently taking a break from the site. See my user page for more information.
stripesthezebra Since: Dec, 2011
#123: Jan 2nd 2012 at 12:13:00 PM

[up]

I'm pretty sure we've discussed literally everything you just stated.

silver2195 Since: Jan, 2001
#124: Jan 2nd 2012 at 12:16:21 PM

[up]A couple people did, but they were drowned out by discussions of Y The Last Man and similar absurd scenarios.

Currently taking a break from the site. See my user page for more information.
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#125: Jan 3rd 2012 at 8:50:55 AM

Jumping in to say, We still have Holocausts.

Most happen in the Continental Africa, some in Bosnia-Herzegovina, various times in the Coastal Asian countries like Sri Lanka, and with the drug cartels in South and Central America; holocaust is a human problem.

While I will say no one has medicalized it quite like the Nazi's did in terms of their desires for experimentation, we still have this problem.

Even what Syria and Bahrain are currently doing to their protesters could be considered a modern holocaust in it's own right.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

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