But unusual is, again, something with very loose standards and where everyone can fit independently of the looks. What is it that makes Mary Jane Watson more special than Spiderman? Or Lily Potter more special than her son? Without comparing to protagonists I still think that Venom is much more special than Mary Jane is and that Hermione was the most special female character in the cast of Harry Potter.
There are no heroes left in Man.It doesn't mean that other characters can't also be special for other reasons.
Mary Jane represents an idealised love interest. Lily Potter represents a loving parent Harry never really knew, a martyr, and an idealised protective mother.
Hermione and Venom are special in the sense of being powerful, but the former is not mysticised in the same way, and the latter is more of a sinister double.
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The StaffIf you doubt Lilly Potter specialness I only can assume you didn't read the books. She was the special magical child of a muggle family and her sister was full of envy because of this, her love stopped Voldemort, she was Snapes reason to fight for Dumbledore, she was Slughorns favourite despite being muggle born, EVERYONE who met her can't stop talking about how special she was.
@ Bobby Yet the other characters are special. It's not something that can only be attributed to a GERH, or that is inevitably connected with being a GERH. Any non background character is special in one way or another. What is it then that would prevent the page from becoming "a list of every GERH ever?"
@ Osmium I read the books, every of them and more than once. Still:
- "She was the special magical child of a muggle family and her sister was full of envy because of this": Hermione was a muggleborn too. Lily faced her sister, Hermione faced many attacks from Slytherin. It's the same.
- "her love stopped Voldemort, she was Snape's reason to fight for Dumbledore". So, a mom loves her son. That's not special. About Snape, he had known her long ago and they became friends because Lily was a way to escape from his reality and his family, who didn't care for him. No wonder he liked her. As he would have liked any other person who made him forget about the problems he had at home.
- "She was Slughorn's favourite despite being muggle born, EVERYONE who met her can't stop talking about how special she was." We tend to idealize dead people. We remember more their good things than their defects. Nothing special about it. Slughorn also liked Hermione. It just happened that Lily met him first (for obvious plot reasons).
Because it's not applicable to GERH characters who aren't, in some other respect, special.
She died to save him. That is.
It's a work of fiction. A deliberate decision was made to make Lily a GERH. Regardless of Snape's reasons for liking her, that doesn't make her GERH-ness coincidental.
Exactly. They are perceived, in other words, as special.
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The StaffYes, there are other muggleborn children, BUT We knew that Petunias whole relationship with Lilly was oversadowed by the fact that Lilly was the special child and Petunia was just normal. Hermione is a single child, so there is no comparison between her and a sibling.
A mom loving her son is not special, a mom stopping the evil overlord with her love is.
Everyone could have this kind of relationship with Snape, but fact is, the only one person had- Lilly, thus making her special.
Yes people idealize the dead, but other dead people like Harrys father had their less nice sides and these sides are shown in the books, but Lilly was never presented to be less than perfect.
Slughorn sees that Hermione is a smart and good student, but we never see him talking about her like he talked about Lilly.
@ Bobby. Then what is it that distinguish a GERH special character from a non GERH special character? Appart from having different hair or eyes, where is the difference?
"She died to save him. That is." I don't know your circumstances, but a mother dying for her children is something that is supposed to be normal. My mother has stated so many times, and I think it's something normal, and quite more common than neglecting your child.
"Regardless of Snape's reasons for liking her, that doesn't make her GERH-ness coincidental." But the thing is, it has more to do with "being at the right place at the right moment" than with being a GERH.
"Exactly. They are perceived, in other words, as special." As any other character that dies. What you're saying there is "dead characters are special", not "a GERH is special".
@ Osmium
"Yes, there are other muggleborn children, BUT We knew that Petunias whole relationship with Lilly was oversadowed by the fact that Lilly was the special child and Petunia was just normal. Hermione is a single child, so there is no comparison between her and a sibling." I don't see the difference, both were hated anyway. In fact we got to see how Hermione suffers (from attacks by Slytherin, from Ron accusing her cat of killing Scabbers, from having to hypnotize her parents to make them forget about her), than we ever saw Lily having problems.
"A mom loving her son is not special, a mom stopping the evil overlord with her love is." I guess your mother doesn't love you enough then. I'm sorry to hear that. But it's normal for mothers to love their children to that point. She didn't love Harry more than a (normal) Real Life mother loves her kids.
"Everyone could have this kind of relationship with Snape, but fact is, the only one person had- Lilly, thus making her special." Again, nothing related with her being a GERH, only related with being a way to escape a worse reality and being in the right place at the right moment. Death Eaters were pals with Snape too, after he grew up.
"Yes people idealize the dead, but other dead people like Harrys father had their less nice sides and these sides are shown in the books, but Lilly was never presented to be less than perfect." Harry had to be like his father. That's why we see James acting sometimes like a douche. More or less like Harry did experimenting Sectumsempra on Malfoy.
"Slughorn sees that Hermione is a smart and good student, but we never see him talking about her like he talked about Lilly." Again, idealization of the dead, and Slughorn meeting Lily first. Slughorn noticed the similarities between Lily and Hermione, but for plot reasons he couldn't meet Hermione first.
My point is, being a GERH doesn't make the character more special than a non GERH. And we could have known Lily with other eyes and she would have been the same character, because the important thing was her having the same eyes as her son.
What is it that makes a GERH special to the point that changing one of the attributes makes us change our whole perception about the character? What is it that substituting the eye colour, for example, makes the plot don't work?
edited 15th Jan '12 12:23:22 PM by DrMcNinja
There are no heroes left in Man.I don't know anyone whose mother died to save them, thank goodness. As far as I'm concerned, that's an impressive act of self-sacrifice, and I think this is how it was portrayed in the books.
And I really think you shouldn't be making negative assumptions about other people's mothers here. I think you may have missed the point there. Would my mom die to save me? Lol, IDK, the subject never came up. But she hasn't died to save me, thankfully.
There is no "in the right place at the right moment". It's a work of fiction. She's there because Rowling put her there.
No, I'm saying that dead characters are commonly idealised (not always), and that giving them a special appearance is one way to emphasise that.
What is it that makes a GERH special to the point that changing one of the attributes makes us change our whole perception about the character? What is it that substituting the eye colour, for example, makes the plot don't work?
It doesn't. It's simply a visual cue, intended to immediately indicate, or to accentuate, a character's specialness.
ninja'd. Dragon Quest Z, I think this may be a productive approach because I think the different ways in which we interpreted the application of this trope to this particular character highlights quite clearly the different ways in which we are approaching this.
edited 15th Jan '12 12:30:09 PM by BobbyG
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It's not that I make negative assumptions, it's just that for me a mother dying for her children is something that seems normal, and I think it's something natural. Thinking that mothers wouldn't make such a sacrifice in Real Life just sounds wrong to me, and it strikes me that other people sees that as something superspecial, when from my point of view it's like gravity existing. I didn't want to offend anyone talking about the mothers.
And if it doesn't change anything we can rule out "special" as something denoted by being a GERH. There have been other comparisons between other characters about that.
What else do we have then? The mix and match thing didn't got explained in the end. As I said before I've seen other pages getting cut and the examples sent to the respective tropes, that's why I don't see it as a good idea.
There are no heroes left in Man.I didn't say that normal mothers wouldn't sacrifice themselves to save their children, I said that normal mothers don't sacrifice themselves to save their children. It is not a normal thing that happens; and at least in the context of the book we were discussing, it was presented as special.
Nor did I say that it doesn't change anything. I said it didn't change the plot, and it doesn't generally. But I also said it was used to immediately indicate, or to accentuate, a character's specialness. That's a change.
As for the "mix and match" thing, how does that not make it simply a subtrope of multiple existing tropes? A GERH is obviously intended to be more special than some random ginger dude.
edited 15th Jan '12 12:54:09 PM by BobbyG
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The StaffI think because he misunderstood you, which still doesn't excuse making things personal.
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The StaffDr. McNinja, I may be incorrect, but the vibe I'm getting is that we might be working with slightly different premises here.
Whatever redefinition(s) we go with, it will almost certainly not include all Green-Eyed Redheads; it will only include Green-Eyed Redheads who also fit the new definition of the trope. Thus, any given green-eyed, redheaded counterexample would just not be covered by the new trope(s).
That said, though, I think Lily Potter is definitely an example of Green-Eyed Redheads Are Special. She's the nail that, for want of her, the entire story would fall completely apart.
EDIT: Also, Weasleys. All of them are also redheaded, but without the green eyes, and they're nowhere near as special as Green-Eyed, Redheaded Lily, either collectively or individually.
EDIT 2: Holy crap. Woah. Uncool, man.
edited 15th Jan '12 1:08:25 PM by Pig_catapult
I already explained that I'm not trying to attack anyone! Seriously, I never made this personal, it's just that I can't reasonably think that someone sees a mother sacrificing herself for her children as something special at the slightless. It's a completely alien concept to me. The sun rises every day, gravity makes mass attract mass and mothers would always sacrifice for their children. That's why I said that "I guess you didn't got loved enough", and that I was sorry to hear that. I was being sincere there. I don't know your personal lives, and I wouldn't talk lightly about these kind of things ever.
Sorry if I got misunderstood there, but I really can't imagine a mother not loving her kids to the point that Lily did. It's just something that clashes with my concept of a mother very very hard.
There are no heroes left in Man.That's why I said that "I guess you didn't got loved enough", and that I was sorry to hear that. I was being sincere there. I don't know your personal lives, and I wouldn't talk lightly about these kind of things ever.
You have no right to assume anything about my relationship with my mother. And I don't think that I misunderstod you, because right now you are repeating you personal attack.
^^ Dude. Chill.
We are at cross purposes.
"Normal mothers wouldn't sacrifice themselves to save their children." - Nobody in this thread is saying this!
Lily Potter is not special because of what she would have done. She is special because of what she did.
edited 15th Jan '12 1:16:47 PM by BobbyG
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Okay, you see, I already apologized. I'm not going to do it twice. I said sorry publicly and in a personal message. If you don't want to accept my apologies there's nothing I can do about it.
"A mom loving her son is not special, a mom stopping the evil overlord with her love is." That's what I differ with. That's what made me say the things I said. The concept of "mother" that I have means supreme love for the children. Any mother.
Statement A: "A mom loving her son is not special, a mom stopping the evil overlord with her love is."
Statement B: "Mothers have supreme love for their children".
These statements are not mutually contradictory! Read them again. Does Statement A imply that a normal mother would not die for her child? No, sir, it does not!
The claim that a normal mother would not die for her child is not one that has been advanced by any person in this thread.
I strongly recommend that, before typing up another post, derailing this discussion any further and putting your foot any further down your throat, you re-read those statements until you see where you misinterpreted them.
Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The StaffI don't think the sacrifice should be tied to her hair and eye color, even loosely. That just opens up a can of worms.
Now that she was a muggle born wizard might work better. Not that one needs to be, but that it's a sign she was special in the story.
Also, what about just redefining it as common in main characters due to plain, simple Author Appeal? That might not seem like it, but the rate they show up seems to suggest writers and artists really like the combo.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.@ @Dr Mc Ninja:
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I will give you one more chance to demonstrate basic reading comprehension.
Are evil overlords a normal thing? Do people sacrifice themselves to save their children from evil overlords on a daily basis? Is this a common occurance in your neighbourhood? When was the last time you heard it reported on the news?
@ Dragon Quest Z: The sacrifice itself isn't, strictly speaking, part of the trope. The trope is just a visual shorthand for specialness.
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Crown Description:


I'm saying I think it constitutes a subtrope.
And no, it doesn't apply to background characters, and the standard for special is simply that the characters are perceived as being in some way unusual, in universe or out.
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