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juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#201: Jan 2nd 2012 at 6:48:38 PM

From what I remember, the Heralds were brought about during the Appeal to Moderation thread because it was argued that newbies often didn't know what's what. Which seems silly, as every other single other complaint that was raised and discussed in that thread is probably way much more important to address than P Ming the new guy, who can probably learn how to fend by himself via good ol' lurking.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#202: Jan 2nd 2012 at 6:52:05 PM

@Juan: Yeah, but with the heralds, "I'm new!" is less of an excuse now.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#203: Jan 2nd 2012 at 6:55:42 PM

Was it ever that much of a problem?

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
inane242 Anwalt der Verdammten from A B-Movie Bildungsroman Since: Nov, 2010
AtticusFinch read from You Since: Mar, 2011
read
#205: Jan 2nd 2012 at 6:56:30 PM

We'll find out, won't we?

oddly
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#206: Jan 2nd 2012 at 6:57:31 PM

How will we "find out" something that was in the past?

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
AtticusFinch read from You Since: Mar, 2011
read
#207: Jan 2nd 2012 at 6:58:12 PM

We'll see how this new implementation works out in the long run.

oddly
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#208: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:02:57 PM

Then there's leading users by the hand and sheltering them from any sort of negativity whatsoever so that at the first sign of mere bluntness they don't know how to react.

Right. Which is not remotely what the forum heralds system is. It's just a way of welcoming newcomers to the site. What does that have to do with sheltering people from bluntness?

If anything, it's another way of making the rules more visible, I'd say.

Causes a strong correlation between "criticizing the site" and "being banned", I like to think that it is an understandable association, and somehow the mods should clear this up so that we won't continue to be seen as being almost Orwellian in our eagerness to make Tv T a family-friendly site.

Well, one problem there is that a number of people seem to think the best way to solve the site's problems is to openly insult the administration, which Eddie doesn't take kindly to and which is a violation of the civility rule anyway.

Of course, there exists a rather large middle ground between "enforce the civility rule" and "ban everybody who criticises you". I do think it would be a lot easier to demonstrate when somebody has clearly earned a ban if the offending posts weren't inevitably thumped, but Eddie is adamant that the thumps are necessary.

We've had people being banned just for being suspected of being an SA regular because they complained about the way things are done here.

The problems with this are: One: Someone shouldn't be judged by the sites they frequent, whether SA or otherwise

and two: Criticism shouldn't be silenced in such a forceful fashion just because you don't particularly like the source.

SA don't want (and aren't actually allowed) to help, though. Not to say that they don't have some valid criticisms, but their primary aim is merely to poke fun at us. And, of course, importing drama is a bannable offence here.

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inane242 Anwalt der Verdammten from A B-Movie Bildungsroman Since: Nov, 2010
Anwalt der Verdammten
#209: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:05:18 PM

But how is that importing?

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.
eternalNoob Ded from yer mum Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Ded
#210: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:05:50 PM

I did at one point. Not so much now

If you wanna PM me, send it to my mrsunshinesprinkles account; this one is blorked.
BlixtySlycat |like a boss| from Driving the Rad Hazard Since: Aug, 2011
|like a boss|
#211: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:08:55 PM

Speaking as Yack Fest's Forum Herald, my job here is not to shield people from negativity, criticism or what have you, or to hold hands. I am here to answer questions people might have about the subforum and to make sure their first impression of the site is a good one (hence why I have some authority over the welcome thread, and nowhere else). My job is also to make sure they know the rules in general and the etiquette of this particular subforum in particular.

I have no idea where you'd get the concept that I'm supposed to be some sort of anti-negativity police from.

go ahead and do every stupid thing you can imagine
Leradny Since: Jan, 2001
#212: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:13:12 PM

Right. Which is not remotely what the forum heralds system is. It's just a way of welcoming newcomers to the site. What does that have to do with sheltering people from bluntness?

It has something to do with sheltering posters because

1) We have a welcome page already.

2) The rules being invisible is a matter of the site design, not how welcoming the community is.

3) This site has gone through at least a decade without forum heralds and no one's scarred for life because they had to depend on the informal welcome they get in the newbies thread. A lot of people think that this is a useless position and a waste of effort now that it's actually put in practice instead of looking good on paper, drawing attention away from more pressing problems.

edited 2nd Jan '12 7:13:41 PM by Leradny

juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#213: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:13:57 PM

SA don't want (and aren't actually allowed) to help, though. Not to say that they don't have some valid criticisms, but their primary aim is merely to poke fun at us. And, of course, importing drama is a bannable offence here.

Notice that I said "Suspected of being goons"

We're not gonna bring up the names again, because we all know who we're talking about and the reasons they were banned.

the point stands: Banning people for being overtly critical of the site seems like a rather...naive way of controlling the site and moderating its people, and using flimsy reasons as "They have a connection with a site we don't like" stinks of immaturity to me.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#214: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:16:15 PM

But how is that importing?

It's more a "where do you draw the line?" thing. If somebody were to organise a raid on this site from another forum (not that SA have done anything of the sort) that would come under the loose umbrella of drama-importation as defined in the forum rules. Would you dispute that trolls coming here from other sites were a valid concern?

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BlixtySlycat |like a boss| from Driving the Rad Hazard Since: Aug, 2011
|like a boss|
#215: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:16:26 PM

There is a very wide gulf between "criticizing the site" and "treating Fast Eddie as if he were Hitler". People have and will again criticize the site constructively and without getting banned or reprimanded in any way. "Don't be a dick" applies to everything said on the forums, not just the informal stuff.

Further, being banned for insulting the administration is usually just the straw that breaks the camel's back rather than the actual cause.

I'm honestly kind of annoyed that being banned for insulting the site owner is somehow considered unreasonable. What site in the world have you been to that doesn't ban for that? Even freaking 4chan bans for that and that's an imageboard. Which are infamously near-lawless.

edited 2nd Jan '12 7:21:15 PM by BlixtySlycat

go ahead and do every stupid thing you can imagine
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#216: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:23:28 PM

I'm not saying that if you, say, vandalized Eddie's page to say cocks, or changed his avatar as some guy did a while back, you shouldn't be banned.

But there's a whole lot of difference between those things and pointing out that maybe, just maybe, Eddie's being unreasonable in an argument.

I'm not saying that this forum is "ZOMG A HORRIBLE HUGBOX WHERE PEOPLE DON'T LISTEN TO CRITICISM" but I often feel that punishment is handed to the right people, while the people who actually deserve to be kicked out are kept under rather flimsy terms, that is all.

We all talk about the same things quite often, in order to solve this: Whether to do a massive rehaul of the rules or to "Self moderate". But we never actually do anything past doing some silly and inneffectual thing like the forum heralds right now.

edited 2nd Jan '12 7:24:04 PM by juancarlos

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#217: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:24:45 PM

3) This site has gone through at least a decade without forum heralds and no one's scarred for life because they had to depend on the informal welcome they get in the newbies thread. A lot of people think that this is a useless position and a waste of effort now that it's actually put in practice instead of looking good on paper, drawing attention away from more pressing problems.

Who said anyone was scarred for life? It's supposed to be a nice thing, a positive thing. I mean, if we were giving out free ice creams would you complain about that?

And "a lot of people" who? I haven't seen these complaints outside this thread and the insecurity page you linked, but if there really are a lot of people who think that, it's clearly not drawing attention away from anything. So what's the problem?

the point stands: Banning people for being overtly critical of the site seems like a rather...naive way of controlling the site and moderating its people, and using flimsy reasons as "They have a connection with a site we don't like" stinks of immaturity to me.

The thing is though, nobody has been banned solely for criticising the site. I am not entirely happy about some of the recent bans, I'll admit. But I don't think you'll get very far by calling the mods/admins immature.

(Incidentally, if we really did ban for criticism, would we be having this discussion at all?)

We all talk about the same things quite often, in order to solve this: Whether to do a massive rehaul of the rules or to "Self moderate". But we never actually do anything past doing some silly and inneffectual thing like the forum heralds right now.

Largely true, unfortunately. The problem is that we never seem to come to a proper consensus, not with the staff on board. The discussions usually peter out (or get themselves locked) before that point.

Eddie's pinned thread in OTC is probably the closest we've come to any sort of agreement.

edited 2nd Jan '12 7:28:45 PM by BobbyG

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inane242 Anwalt der Verdammten from A B-Movie Bildungsroman Since: Nov, 2010
Anwalt der Verdammten
#218: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:26:42 PM

Would you dispute that trolls coming here from other sites were a valid concern?

Sure, Why Not?

Sure, If they GPK cleaning up is a fucking chore, other than that they can be fairly entertaining.

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#219: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:32:14 PM

The thing is though, nobody has been banned solely for criticising the site. I am not entirely happy about some of the recent bans, I'll admit. But I don't think you'll get very far by calling the mods/admins immature.

No, but their posts either end up deleted for their trouble. Hell, I've got thumped for saying that there have been bigoted posts in OTC that have gone unpunished.

And I think we all can agree that that's not exactly a far fetched thing to say, is it?

(Incidentally, if we really did ban for criticism, would we be having this discussion at all?)

No, we most certainly do not ban for criticism. Otherwise, people like me, who often feel a need to be snippy about the way things are done here, would have been banned a long time ago.

But you have to admit, oftentimes, posts get deleted and people get banned simply for saying something that another troper does not like, such as you know, criticism.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
BlixtySlycat |like a boss| from Driving the Rad Hazard Since: Aug, 2011
|like a boss|
#220: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:35:56 PM

I'm frankly pretty insulted that my position is being called worthless and silly.

Not just because it's my position either. Is there really something horribly wrong about what's essentially a greeter? I'm not sure it's necessary no, I don't think it was ever intended to be, but it's something nice. I could've used one on my first day here. Yes it is entirely true that I've only helped two people so far. But I think I made the place seem a little friendlier to those two people at least. And you know what? I would prefer a friendly environment to whatever the alternative is being proposed here is.

Does that mean I think you should never be allowed to say anything bad about anyone or anything ever? No, of course not. But there's a time and a place for everything and more importantly there's a proper way to say everything. I will grant that I am not always terribly civil myself, so maybe I'm just a hypocrite. But I vastly prefer it when rude people get thumped then to when people who are LE GASP "wrong" get shouted-down by hive mentality. There are enough sites on the internet with an unwritten list of things it is okay to think and things that it is not okay to think. We have never operated like that, and I would far prefer it if we never did operate like that. That's what people talk about when they say we're different from other sites. And I like that about us. I always have.

Yes, it means that sometimes, annoying people slip through the cracks. You know what? Tough S. Annoying people are all around you in real life too, and in real life you can't just call on the mods to kick out people who say things you disagree with. And that is exactly what you are advocating, in the long run. And you know what? If that makes us weird or creepy to other sites, I frankly could care less. I care about what gets said here about us, not what gets said on Something Awful or Encyclopedia Dramatica or Oh Internet or 4chan. It doesn't matter to me.

Now do we have problems? Certainly. Every site has problems. But they're fixable, and I think we should fixate on those rather on problems that don't exist. And a lot of the ones that have been brought up recently are the latter (not all, but a lot). We've got some serious organizational issues to tackle, some stuff with coding, etc. And you're all here demanding Eddie hunt for your own personal witches. You are doing the same thing that you're accusing us of doing, except instead of with civility, you're doing it with whatever beliefs happen to offend you. I think that's hypocritical, not to mention selfish. People can get along with people they disagree with, and not even can, have to. That's how life works. You're going to run into a homophobic colleague at work some time, or you're going to be made to go to dinner with your racist uncle. It's tough. It sucks. But that's how life is.

By making "don't be rude" the foundation of our policies here, we avoid having to pick apart people who "might" be racist, or sexist, or whatever else, and we distill it down to "say what you want, just say it respectably."

I think that's a good deal more freedom of speech than most sites have, and after some long thinking and periods of being conflicted. I quite like it that way. If you don't, there's a million other sites on the internet that you can go to, and I hate to say that, but it's the truth.

Not to mention, are you really so insecure in your beliefs that having other people make a point you consider bigoted mortally wounds you in some way? Prove them wrong if you think they're wrong, and if they don't listen, ignore them. Not a hard concept to get your head around.

edited 2nd Jan '12 7:38:03 PM by BlixtySlycat

go ahead and do every stupid thing you can imagine
AtticusFinch read from You Since: Mar, 2011
read
#221: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:37:54 PM

Well, with that said, all I can manage to really say is "Yeah, I agree with Blixty"

oddly
Leradny Since: Jan, 2001
#222: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:38:27 PM

Look, being nice is cool, but is it really necessary to appoint forum heralds to do something that could be done with a clearly stated page, something that is only applicable to the proportionately small influx of new users, who will no longer be new users, rather than the large group of established users who have questions and concerns of their own which will usually be a lot more important than "where do I go to post about video games"?

Moreover, if the community is so forgiving and accepting, Tv Tropes out of all other sites should be a place where people can wander around on their own without having a mentor or a tour guide to show them around.

AtticusFinch read from You Since: Mar, 2011
read
#223: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:39:13 PM

I think that a person giving help might be better than a page, if only because it makes it more personal, and slightly less skimmable.

I mean, we already have a pinned newbie intro thread. This just looks like an extension of that, to me.

edited 2nd Jan '12 7:39:46 PM by AtticusFinch

oddly
BlixtySlycat |like a boss| from Driving the Rad Hazard Since: Aug, 2011
|like a boss|
#224: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:40:39 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I am here to field questions about this particular subforum.

If that offends you, then don't ask me any.

go ahead and do every stupid thing you can imagine
inane242 Anwalt der Verdammten from A B-Movie Bildungsroman Since: Nov, 2010
Anwalt der Verdammten
#225: Jan 2nd 2012 at 7:41:47 PM

I care about what gets said here about us, not what gets said on Something Awful or Encyclopedia Dramatica or Oh Internet or 4chan. It doesn't matter to me.

This so much. Why is there a big brouhaha over SA bitching? It's what they do. Hells, Eddie could be Jesus and we could have the apostles for mods and they'd call us shit. Why does anyone give a fuck about what they say?

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.

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