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MotorRunner A Light In The Darkness from WSA Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Abstaining
A Light In The Darkness
#176: Jan 2nd 2012 at 1:38:24 PM

My original account has a lot of postcounts. This? Not so much.

Post counts in a forum can be a bad thing, because forum regulars would unconsciously treat 'the guy with 3 posts who's been there for 2 years contributing to the wiki and lurking about the forums' as a noob.

Without a postcount, it's easier to treat everyone as an equal.

edited 2nd Jan '12 1:39:10 PM by MotorRunner

ARCHITECT POWAHHH! Will soon be posting as 'Firebird'... [[http://tinyurl.com/ttwiktlk Wiki Talk Subfor
Jimmmyman10 cannot into space from polan Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
cannot into space
#177: Jan 2nd 2012 at 1:43:09 PM

[up][up] No duh. Of course they are better than me!

Go play Kentucky Route Zero. Now.
thefran Easily Amused from a microwave oven Since: Oct, 2011
#178: Jan 2nd 2012 at 1:45:46 PM

Not everyone hates them. I don't, and I've been thumped for 'taking troll bait'
Yep, the mods can be trippy like that.

Talk calmly to someone who's not even trolling - thumped for taking troll bait.

STEALTH!!!
Leradny Since: Jan, 2001
#179: Jan 2nd 2012 at 1:46:55 PM

To be honest, I've begun to feel constrained with the emphasis on "not being a dick" and "no negativity". It's resulted in some really passive aggressive actions to "avoid confrontation", which isn't the same thing as being a dick or negative, and is actually prohibited in the forum rules list. But since the forum rules list was created a shade over one year ago, and isn't on the main wiki where people can easily access it even as a subsection on the Administrative Policy page, which is itself buried rather well, no one realizes that it is against the rules. Therefore, they don't stop themselves and confront people in a productive manner, or report an incident when they see it, so it keeps going on unless a mod happens across the post.

Speaking of mods, I don't feel comfortable with any of them. Locking threads is one thing and I'd be surprised if they didn't have the ability, but actually blanking offensive posts means that there's no way people can defend themselves if they are wrongly accused or banned. And any attempt to give constructive criticism on the administrative policy/rules list tends to get blanked with or without a ban from whoever posted it.

I've also noticed that people tend to be called out for stating their opinion, not because "their argument is unsound" or "they've missed the point", but because they're "being too blunt/mean". And even if they are wrong, the blame is put on whoever stated their opinion for working off faulty or incomplete information, rather than whoever provided the faulty/incomplete information in the first place. This has happened several times, including to me. The message it gives is, no matter how unintended, "You can express as many misinformed opinions as you'd like, as long as you're nice about it. If you're right about something, you still need to tread carefully because you'll get thumped or banned if someone decides you're being mean."

Also, I think forum heralds are completely unnecessary.

Don't get me wrong, I still like posting here and have no particular intention of leaving, unless this post gets thumped or I get banned. It's just that I think the priorities of Tv Tropes as a whole are either misaligned or poorly stated, and this is why other sites mock us for being a rules-less hugbox dominated by hypocritical/lazy/all-powerful/mood-swingy/what have you mods.

juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#180: Jan 2nd 2012 at 1:51:21 PM

...

Leradny, I almost forgot why we used to kinda sorta hang out.

Now I remember.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
Enzeru icon by implodingoracle from Orlando, FL ¬ôχಠ♥¯ Since: Mar, 2011
icon by implodingoracle
#181: Jan 2nd 2012 at 2:20:13 PM

I like the mods, too, even if they're a bit intimidating.*

/modtalk (This thread is about being a TVT community, not about whether we like mods or not.)

[down]Rocker? I don't get it.

edited 2nd Jan '12 2:23:17 PM by Enzeru

InverurieJones '80s TV Action Hero from North of the Wall. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
'80s TV Action Hero
#182: Jan 2nd 2012 at 2:21:31 PM

I hate mods. -is a rocker-

'All he needs is for somebody to throw handgrenades at him for the rest of his life...'
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#183: Jan 2nd 2012 at 2:26:20 PM

* Also, apparently there's a difference between mods and admins. I can't tell which is which

Administrators deal with the administration aspect of the site. Money, domain, software and so on.

Moderators just deal with keeping the users in control and enforcing the rules.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
Enzeru icon by implodingoracle from Orlando, FL ¬ôχಠ♥¯ Since: Mar, 2011
icon by implodingoracle
#184: Jan 2nd 2012 at 2:29:13 PM

Thanks for clearing that up.

Jimmmyman10 cannot into space from polan Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
cannot into space
#185: Jan 2nd 2012 at 2:30:07 PM

Different mods inspire different feelings. Fast Eddie is god, Maddy is a nice librarian who will help you find what you need, and if you don't act nice, shush you TO DEATH, Bobby G is your crazy unle who somehow got put in charge of a store, and now runs it well, but just as silly as he likes, etc.

Go play Kentucky Route Zero. Now.
InverurieJones '80s TV Action Hero from North of the Wall. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
'80s TV Action Hero
#186: Jan 2nd 2012 at 2:41:14 PM

@Enzeru: Mods and Rockers were (violently) rival subcultures in England back in the '50s.

edited 2nd Jan '12 2:41:54 PM by InverurieJones

'All he needs is for somebody to throw handgrenades at him for the rest of his life...'
MotorRunner A Light In The Darkness from WSA Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Abstaining
A Light In The Darkness
#187: Jan 2nd 2012 at 3:27:12 PM

[up][up] Again, personalities.

ARCHITECT POWAHHH! Will soon be posting as 'Firebird'... [[http://tinyurl.com/ttwiktlk Wiki Talk Subfor
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#188: Jan 2nd 2012 at 4:20:02 PM

To be honest, I've begun to feel constrained with the emphasis on "not being a dick" and "no negativity". It's resulted in some really passive aggressive actions to "avoid confrontation", which isn't the same thing as being a dick or negative, and is actually prohibited in the forum rules list. But since the forum rules list was created a shade over one year ago, and isn't on the main wiki where people can easily access it even as a subsection on the Administrative Policy page, which is itself buried rather well, no one realizes that it is against the rules. Therefore, they don't stop themselves and confront people in a productive manner, or report an incident when they see it, so it keeps going on unless a mod happens across the post.

Y'know, putting the rules on the wiki proper mightn't be a bad idea. It honestly never occurred to me.

I don't think the rules are exactly hard to find, though. I mean, there's a link to them at the top of the "add post" screen; that's not what you'd call concealed.

The rules could also do with reform IMO, but whenever we discuss this we never seem to arrive at anything concrete and so no change gets made.

Speaking of mods, I don't feel comfortable with any of them. Locking threads is one thing and I'd be surprised if they didn't have the ability, but actually blanking offensive posts means that there's no way people can defend themselves if they are wrongly accused or banned. And any attempt to give constructive criticism on the administrative policy/rules list tends to get blanked with or without a ban from whoever posted it.

Sorry to hear that.

I think we could certainly stand to use thumps and skullfuckings less than we currently do. The latter, in particular, should really only be used for spambots and such, IMO.

I've also noticed that people tend to be called out for stating their opinion, not because "their argument is unsound" or "they've missed the point", but because they're "being too blunt/mean". And even if they are wrong, the blame is put on whoever stated their opinion for working off faulty or incomplete information, rather than whoever provided the faulty/incomplete information in the first place. This has happened several times, including to me. The message it gives is, no matter how unintended, "You can express as many misinformed opinions as you'd like, as long as you're nice about it. If you're right about something, you still need to tread carefully because you'll get thumped or banned if someone decides you're being mean."

I don't think it's necessary to tread all that carefully. Politeness costs nothing, and if people are too afraid of ridicule or flaming to talk about things which they don't understand they're unlikely to ever learn any better.

Bobby G is your crazy unle who somehow got put in charge of a store, and now runs it well, but just as silly as he likes

O_O;

TBH I think I'm probably more of a student teacher. Or a work experience boy.

Re: consistency, there's also the issue that we have differing standards. This is not necessarily a bad thing. For example, I think I have a reputation, on the mod board, for a "gentle" or "light" approach to moderation. All well and good, but sometimes it's necessary to be ruthless.

Over time I think we've grown a little more similar and consistent, if it helps.

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wuggles (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#189: Jan 2nd 2012 at 5:32:22 PM

I personally like the emphasis on not being a dick. Too many forums I've been to seem to hate everything that's popular (or everything period) and are quite irritating. Also I never understand why people think that the mods here all so mean and ban everyone who even might say something mean. Who exactly have they banned for no reason whatsoever? If someone is banned, usually they said something that was against the rules.

AtticusFinch read from You Since: Mar, 2011
read
#190: Jan 2nd 2012 at 5:33:46 PM

If someone is misinformed, isn't it better to politely inform them, as opposed to being rude to them about it?

Or if they honestly believe something you disagree with, agree to disagree?

oddly
CompassionateSadist from some other place Since: Sep, 2009
#191: Jan 2nd 2012 at 5:36:40 PM

I never feel like a part of any community I'm in, one more won't make a difference.

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#192: Jan 2nd 2012 at 5:43:28 PM

I personally like the emphasis on not being a dick. Too many forums I've been to seem to hate everything that's popular (or everything period) and are quite irritating. Also I never understand why people think that the mods here all so mean and ban everyone who even might say something mean. Who exactly have they banned for no reason whatsoever? If someone is banned, usually they said something that was against the rules.

I think "don't be a dick" is a pretty good standard for a board like this one (though it couldn't be our only standard), and I agree with Atticus that it's better to politely inform somebody than to be rude to them.

Most of the more controversial bans have involved a troper being banned while or after (not, as is sometimes claimed, for) criticising the site. That there actually have been incidents where a troper criticising the site has been banned mistakenly, as with Anne Beeche's first ban when she was mistaken for an SA troll, certainly hasn't helped matters.

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Leradny Since: Jan, 2001
#193: Jan 2nd 2012 at 6:04:38 PM

I don't think the rules are exactly hard to find, though. I mean, there's a link to them at the top of the "add post" screen; that's not what you'd call concealed.

If you're not trying to add a post, the rules might as well be concealed because they are not:

  • At the top toolbar on the homepage.
  • One of the links in the Troperville frame.
  • Given a link in any of the pages on the Troperville frame.

It took me half an hour of googling before I sighed, clicked the button, and saw the banner. That is not an example of efficient display.

And for what it's worth, I never said to strike "Don't be a dick" from the rules. I just said that when you get to creating a welcome committee for new users that isn't as useful as anyone thought it would be, maybe the site is giving "Don't be a dick" way too much emphasis and it should go on the backburner.

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#194: Jan 2nd 2012 at 6:13:58 PM

Most forums I've seen just keep their rules posts in a pinned thread, though they usually have said thread pinned at the top of every subforum.

I know you didn't say to strike "don't be a dick" from the rules.

I don't think the forum herald thing really has a lot to do with that, though. That's more about welcoming new people into the forums, which given that the entire point of the forums (minus Wiki and Forums section) is to be a fun, friendly community hangout, doesn't strike me as a bad idea in principle, even if it's ineffectual in practice.

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DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#195: Jan 2nd 2012 at 6:33:07 PM

The forum herald thing has only been around for a couple of weeks now. Give it time.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Leradny Since: Jan, 2001
#196: Jan 2nd 2012 at 6:37:16 PM

I don't think the forum herald thing really has a lot to do with that, though.

The forum heralds has everything to do with the policy. There's making a fun, friendly hangout full of people who are not dicks, which I can get behind. Then there's leading users by the hand and sheltering them from any sort of negativity whatsoever so that at the first sign of mere bluntness they don't know how to react.

And if this:

Most of the more controversial bans have involved a troper being banned while or after (not, as is sometimes claimed, for) criticising the site.

Causes a strong correlation between "criticizing the site" and "being banned", I like to think that it is an understandable association, and somehow the mods should clear this up so that we won't continue to be seen as being almost Orwellian in our eagerness to make TvT a family-friendly site.

juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#197: Jan 2nd 2012 at 6:37:26 PM

Give it time to do what?

I think we could certainly stand to use thumps and skullfuckings less than we currently do. The latter, in particular, should really only be used for spambots and such, IMO.

I agree one hundred per cent with this.

I personally like the emphasis on not being a dick. Too many forums I've been to seem to hate everything that's popular (or everything period) and are quite irritating. Also I never understand why people think that the mods here all so mean and ban everyone who even might say something mean. Who exactly have they banned for no reason whatsoever? If someone is banned, usually they said something that was against the rules.

We've had people being banned just for being suspected of being an SA regular because they complained about the way things are done here.

The problems with this are: One: Someone shouldn't be judged by the sites they frequent, whether SA or otherwise

and two: Criticism shouldn't be silenced in such a forceful fashion just because you don't particularly like the source.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
AtticusFinch read from You Since: Mar, 2011
read
#198: Jan 2nd 2012 at 6:39:33 PM

I agree with DG. Worrying about the forum herald people as being anything but a new idea just seems like crying wolf to me.

oddly
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#199: Jan 2nd 2012 at 6:40:52 PM

It's just a new idea, yes, but a new idea that hardly addresses any of the problems or complaints the community has issued.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
AtticusFinch read from You Since: Mar, 2011
read
#200: Jan 2nd 2012 at 6:42:15 PM

All it is is a way to let newbies know what's what. I don't think it was meant to address anything else.

oddly

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