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What's up with jackass elves?

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Aldheim Heathen from Saint Louis, MO Since: Sep, 2010
Heathen
#1: Dec 29th 2011 at 8:26:24 PM

I know that TV Tropes is no stranger to this, given our "elf" trope is called Our Elves Are Better (and its sister trope, Can't Argue with Elves) but something struck me earlier tonight.

In 1st through 3rd edition Dungeons And Dragons, elves worshipped, and were embodied in, the god Corellon Larethian, a Chaotic Good deity of nature, archery, magic, and androgyny. In 4th edition, Corellon has become Unaligned (thus, more of a jackass.) Meanwhile, over in Pathfinder, their default elf deity is Calistria, a Chaotic Neutral goddess of carnal lust and retribution. Definitely more jackass than ol' Corellion was.

This is a far cry from Rivendell, folks.

I realize plenty of settings have had jackass elves in the past - Dark Sun is an excellent example - but those settings were generally doing it as a deliberate break from Tolkien Elves and other standard fantasy tropes. These are the default setting elves for the two most popular roleplaying games in the world.

What caused this shift? Is it the influence of Warcraft, where neither of the two elf sects are particularly "good?" The blood elves there are particularly close to the kind of demeanor Calistra typifies, and they're the "traditional" elves in that setting, so maybe that explains it.

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Ramus Lead. from some computer somwhere. Since: Aug, 2009
Lead.
#2: Dec 29th 2011 at 8:30:50 PM

Maybe people are just sick of the "We're beautiful, good, and better than you in every way" elves. I mean really, prime example of this is in Eragon. One way or another, elves are portrayed as prideful, obnoxious, and full of themselves and this is just showing that in more blunt terms.

The emotions of others can seem like such well guarded mysteries, people 8egin to 8elieve that's how their own emotions should 8e treated.
Aldheim Heathen from Saint Louis, MO Since: Sep, 2010
Heathen
#3: Dec 29th 2011 at 8:35:59 PM

It's also a little odd, to me, that in both cases the games hewed closely to Our Dwarves Are All the Same - Moradin is still Lawful Good in 4E, and Torag is basically an expy of Moradin, right down to being the World-Forger. Mythologically speaking, dwarves were just as morally ambiguous as elves, if not moreso.

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Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#4: Dec 29th 2011 at 10:06:25 PM

The Eldar from Warhammer 40000 have to be factored in as well.

Nyktos (srahc 84) eltit Since: Jan, 2001
(srahc 84) eltit
#5: Dec 30th 2011 at 12:10:41 AM

Yeah, what it comes down to is that the traditional elves really are basically prettier immortal humans who tend to boss everyone else around. It's easy to see how humans could resent that, and, well...

I guess it is.
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#6: Dec 30th 2011 at 1:05:18 AM

Not allowed to imply that elves are easy, even though you've never heard of a half-gnome.
There is too an elven word for monogamy.
I know there's even more of those from Mr. Welch, but those are the two that always stick in my head in regards to elves.

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#7: Dec 30th 2011 at 4:14:23 AM

I think Our Elves Are Better is just a misperception due to the fact that most of the elves we see in The Lord of the Rings are ancient nobility/demigods. Compare the wood elves, who spend most of their time partying and trying to obtain treasure without working for it, or the elves of Hollin, whose pride and magical hubris get them into all kinds of trouble.

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Exelixi Lesbarian from Alchemist's workshop Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Lesbarian
#8: Dec 30th 2011 at 7:02:23 AM

Ald: Tropes evolve. Tolkein did his elf thing, D&D followed, and it was fine. But eventually, people started getting bored with that. So, Elves were made like the Blood Elves in Warcraft, the elves of Eberron (psychotic tribal mercenaries who worship their ancestors and/or an undead council), the elves of Dark Sun. That caught on, and having fundamentally fucked-up elves became the norm. At some point, people will get bored with that and reforge the elves into something resembling more what they once were.

Same thing with Vampires; first, evil monsters, then, romantic, tragic figures, then, well, let's not get into that. And now, they're starting to become darker and scarier again, going back to their mythological roots in many cases.

You see the cycle with a lot of tropes.

Mura: -flips the bird to veterinary science with one hand and Euclidean geometry with the other-
MadassAlex I am vexed! from the Middle Ages. Since: Jan, 2001
I am vexed!
#9: Dec 30th 2011 at 8:34:10 AM

Tolkien gets a pass because his elves were still essentially The Fair Folk; they were just a Neutral Good version rather than Chaotic Neutral. It's not until you get Tolkien imitators that you get elves that could honestly be considered human.

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NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#10: Dec 30th 2011 at 9:36:18 AM

The thing with Tolkien elves is that he basically had two unrelated portrayals of them. In The Hobbit, they were generally chill guys who spent all their time hanging out in the woods enjoying themselves (okay, the Mirkwood elves were sort of dicks, but they had a lot more unpleasant neighbors to worry about than the Rivendell elves did). In Lord Of The Rings, elves are distant, bitter jerks who are simultaneously a) suffering from immortal ennui, b) envious of the fact that their time of being the most important dudes on middle earth is long over, and c) terrified of Sauron. The two are completely unrelated despite being the same guys because The Hobbit was originally independent from the Lord Of The Rings until the two underwent Canon Welding.

Since Lord Of The Rings is the more popular of the two, the Lawful Neutral no-fun elves became the standard and the Chaotic Good party elves fell by the wayside.

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MadassAlex I am vexed! from the Middle Ages. Since: Jan, 2001
I am vexed!
#11: Dec 30th 2011 at 9:41:01 AM

Actually, if you look at the book, Rivendell elves are near enough the same in both. The Hobbits spend weeks at Rivendell in the books, and much of that time is spent feasting, writing songs and the elves being general smart-asses about everything to everyone, including Aragorn.

The Lothlorien elves seem a bit different, though, although that's arguably to help with the tone of the book at the time.

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Aldheim Heathen from Saint Louis, MO Since: Sep, 2010
Heathen
#12: Dec 30th 2011 at 9:52:33 AM

And because the Lothlorien elves are guided by Galadriel, who has the immortal ennui more than anyone else in Middle-Earth at that point. (Elrond is the only other contender, but he's never seen the Undying Lands, whereas Galadriel is old enough to have seen the light from the Trees - and she knows that her cousins among the Teleri probably still haven't forgiven anyone associated with Feanor for the Kinslaying, even though that was like, twenty thousand years ago. Going "home" has baggage for her. *L*)

edited 30th Dec '11 9:53:10 AM by Aldheim

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Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#13: Dec 30th 2011 at 1:37:25 PM

No ones mentioned the "Deep elves" yet, the ones that lived under ground. I read a series about one of them, he hated their society and went to the surface. They were the complete opposite of most elves. Evil, blood thirsty, back stabbing, Random murderers of children and stuff, ect. ect.

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Aldheim Heathen from Saint Louis, MO Since: Sep, 2010
Heathen
#14: Dec 30th 2011 at 1:54:31 PM

Well, sure, there's the drow, but for all intents and purposes they're a whole other category of "elf." I guess you could make the argument that now the gradient between "elf" and "drow" is more visible and drow are just the capriciousness of jackass elves taken to its most extreme form.

My book, THE LIVES OF THE APOSTATES, is out now!
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#15: Dec 30th 2011 at 2:32:14 PM

True enough.

Well, that's my 2 cents. I'm no elfologist.

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Madrugada Zzzzzzzzzz Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
#16: Dec 30th 2011 at 2:45:08 PM

The Drow/Elf division is really just the same sort of division as already existed in folklore, with the Seelie Court (attractive and not actively malevolent towards humans) and Unseelie Court(cruel and actively malevolent toward humans) in Celtic lore and the Lojtalfar (Literally "light elves" — the good guys) and Dokkalfar (Literally, "dark elves", the nasties) in Icelandic and Scandinavian lore.

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Exelixi Lesbarian from Alchemist's workshop Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Lesbarian
#17: Dec 30th 2011 at 2:54:31 PM

Wouldn't it be Alfologist? What with Alf being the original word and stuffs.

Mura: -flips the bird to veterinary science with one hand and Euclidean geometry with the other-
Aldheim Heathen from Saint Louis, MO Since: Sep, 2010
Heathen
#18: Dec 30th 2011 at 5:12:53 PM

Also, the svartalfar in Norse Mythology were nowhere near as big of jerks as the drow are. *L*

My book, THE LIVES OF THE APOSTATES, is out now!
FarseerLolotea from America's Finest City Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#19: Jan 2nd 2012 at 12:33:17 AM

Maybe it's an attempt to play around with the Superior Species trope instead of playing it straight?

Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
◥▶◀◤
#20: Jan 2nd 2012 at 6:41:09 AM

Elves and dwarfs have always seemed like stereotypical allegories for the two different kinds of working class.

Elves the white collar, intellectual group. Very prim, proper, a bit stuck up making them seem more Jerkass-ish.

While Dwarfs are more blue collar workers, being they may at times be blunt and too the point*

, but they're also more willing to relax at the bar.

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nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#21: Jan 2nd 2012 at 12:29:39 PM

It'd be cool to see a "jackass dwarves" race that constantly brags about their metallurgy/technology being second to none. Think of them as the arrogant tech geeks of the fantasy world.

CountDorku Official Tesladyne Employee TM from toiling in the Space Mines Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Official Tesladyne Employee TM
#22: Jan 2nd 2012 at 12:39:42 PM

[up] Warhammer has surly, everything-humans-make-is-shit dwarves, does that count?

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Aldheim Heathen from Saint Louis, MO Since: Sep, 2010
Heathen
unhappyyak :( from Minneapolis Since: Apr, 2009
:(
#25: Jan 3rd 2012 at 7:39:31 AM

Elves and dwarfs have always seemed like stereotypical allegories for the two different kinds of working class.

Elves the white collar, intellectual group. Very prim, proper, a bit stuck up making them seem more Jerkass-ish.

While Dwarfs are more blue collar workers, being they may at times be blunt and too the point, but they're also more willing to relax at the bar.

Ever read any Neal Stephenson, Vyctorian? tongue

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